<p>I’m not sure you “see” what many find offensive about discussing that in this context. I have no problem in general with examining the practices which take place in a community, or amongst some people who belong to that community. For instance, child abuse is a topic worth discussing. Not sure everyone in a religion should be painted with broad brushstroke. However, I don’t think that discussion belongs HERE, and can’t fathom its connection. </p>
<p>What is offensive is this…I’ll try to explain…for instance, I just read with tears streaming down my face of the memorial service for Emily Keyes, the very special teenage girl assaulted and killed at the school in Colorado. Now, I don’t know her religion, though I do know her race. But let’s say she was Black, Hispanic, Muslim, Jewish, Indian, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, whatever, and then the discussion turned to her tenets of her religion, or “all the people” from her race, or the people from her race or religion who have done bad things. I’d see no relation to the tragedy or to this girl. The fact that she happened to belong to a certain race or religion has nothing to do with the cold blooded sexual assault and execution of this innocent lovely young lady. Just nothing at all. Discussing religions, discussing questionable practices of some who belong to a religion or race is one thing but it has NOTHING to do with the case at hand. Picking up on someone’s beliefs or religion in this situation, or even the actions of some others who happen to also lbelong to that same religion seems, well, a form of profiling or discrimination where it has no bearing on the situation or their victimization.</p>
<p>It is not like studying the Amish is not interesting or not important. If the topic interests you, perhaps you should start a thread about, “What do you think of some of the practices in the Amish community?” or something along the lines of an issue you care about. I just see that bringing up the victim’s religion and what negative things you see in their religion or by some who practice it, has to do with this crime against these innocent precious children.</p>
<p>Choice, let us talk about “choice” shall we?</p>
<p>If you leave, you are allowed no contact with family- none- no sibliings, no parents, no friends, nothing</p>
<p>You have an 8th grade education, no job skills, no world skills</p>
<p>And that 8th grade education is reading, writing, arithmetic- the most basic skills to work in that community only- sewing, basic building, simple farming</p>
<p>The connection is the talk about this “peaceful” loving caring community that just wants to be left alone to do as they please suddenly having the “world” of violence brought into its mist…because this little Eden is so perfect…well, when you start talking like that about a community, in those terms, to ignore the other side does a disservice to those little boys and girls who are in that community that are still dealing with oppression, etc</p>
<p>What happened was horrid… .the “man” who did it was sick, perverse, and those families have lost so so much</p>
<p>But I think about the children STILL in that world, the living ones who have been abused, whose moms have been abused, who really have no choice in their futures, I think about them…do you?</p>
<p>CGM, I don’t know if your question was to me or not. For me, nothing about that topic is relevant to the shooting incident. Sure, I could discuss education, gender roles or inequality, discrimination, child rearing practices, legal issues and what not about a community or group of people. But let’s say my own kid was the victim of a crime, such as these kids in Lancaster County. The crime didn’t target their religion but they just happened to be in the school that was chosen for the crime, or perhaps an easy target. Now, would I want you to then discuss the belief systems of all Jews (my kids are Jewish), the bad practices of some Jews you have heard about, and so on? No, I would find that very distasteful. I would focus on the victimization of a PERSON, not which race or religion he/she belonged to. I might comment on how their community dealt with the tragedy. But I would not use it as a jumping off point to discuss the beliefs and practices of the race or religion that the victim happened to belong to!</p>
<p>Well, I don’t think you get what I am trying to say, so not sure what more there is to it then. Yes, the victims were Amish. That is their identity. It is not a secret. So, do we then discuss the belief systems of the religious community that a victim happens to belong to or the practices of SOME folks who share her religion? In my view, no. As I said, if God forbid my kid was shot at school, I hope you would not then get into discussions about the practices of Jews that you don’t agree with, because she happens to be Jewish. </p>
<p>Now, if in another context, you examined belief systems and things like child abuse, gender discrimination, and so on, not a problem.</p>
<p>Just to be clear (though I guess I am not, as the case may be), discussing how their community is dealing with the tragedy is not the same as bringing up how SOME people in that sect do X, Y, or Z, which you don’t agree with. THAT topic belongs in another context, in my opinion.</p>
<p>I have lived in Lancaster County and am a Mennonite pastor. Yes there are some serious problems in Amish homes and they have not always been dealt with appropriately. But that is the exception rather than the rule, just as abuse is in most cultures. And yes, leaving is a difficult decision, but many people do. And in reality, many of those people do remain in contact with their families and friends at some level. The Amish in Lancaster County are not as isolated as you seem to think, CGM. The main thing I learned, living side by side with the Amish was that they are people too. They are not a living history museum or a tourist attraction. The bulcolic descriptions of their lifestyle are made by outsiders, not by them. The are simply people trying to live what they think is a faithful life. Some of them do a better job than others. Like any group of people.</p>
<p>As far as I know, a “no contact” policy applies only to the BAPTIZED adult members of the community who choose to leave. Everybody else is free to come and go as they please.</p>
<p>parabella, that is correct. And even then people sometimes do find a way to see their friends and family. For example, since they are not supposed to eat at the same table, sometimes two tables are placed an inch apart and covered with the same cloth. It really varies among communities how strictly the ban is observed, not all Amish communities are the same. There is no central Amish authority.</p>
<p>*
All Things Considered, November 13, 2003 · In recent decades, an increasing number of Amish have abandoned their traditional farming jobs for work in the manufacturing sector. There’s just one catch: Child labor laws say that teens can work on farms, not in shops with power tools. That’s a problem in the Amish community, where teenagers stop their schooling and begin apprenticeships at age 14.
A new bill in Congress seeks to change labor laws to allow Amish teenagers to work in sawmills and woodworking shops. Opponents of the bill say it does not fully take into account the dangers inherent in a workplace where saws and other power tools abound. But as NPR’s Ari Shapiro reports, the Amish see the bill as a necessary measure to protect their way of life.</p>
<p>(but hey for sake of tradition, have 14 year olds working in saw mills)</p>
<p>Yesterday my daughter, who is in a graduate program in elementary education, called to say the school where she is doing her first student teaching placement was locked down for two hours after police spotted an armed suspect in a home invasion robbery on the school grounds. She and the teacher she is working under spent that time with their class of more than 30 fifth graders, reassuring them, explaining why they couldn’t even leave to go to the bathroom, and only after it was all over – and the teacher burst into tears – did it hit her that she was responsible for all those kids. When she drove from there to her six hours of education classes, she discovered that several other people in her program had also already been in similar situations.</p>
<p>It just occurs to me that not only do we put our children’s futures in the hands of teachers, but even their very lives. And yet teachers get so little respect compared to the education they receive, and so little pay compared to the costs of the communities in which they teach. As a parent, it also hit me how often we worry about the wrong things when it comes to our kids. We never thought about elementary school teaching as a dangerous occupation until now!</p>
<p>Sac, thank you for bringing it back on topic. I am sorry to learn of the experience your D and her students were placed under that relates to the topic of school violence. I imagine it was a stressful situation and one that took all she had to keep the children calm and reassured. I used to be an elementary school teacher as well. And no, I never thought of the occupation, at the time, as one that was dangerous. Teachers deal with more and more each year, beyond simply teaching academics! I am sure the latest rash of incidents has got schools discussing any measures they can take to prevent incidents, but also just dealing with kids who see the news and have to fear what CAN happen anywhere.</p>
<p>She said the teacher told the class it was a drill, and that they discussed some of the shootings that had taken place at other schools. When I expressed surprise that the kids knew about those, my daughter said: They’re fifth graders, Mom! They see it on the news.</p>
<p>I have to say that the unhappiness I’ve had with Nightline ever since Ted Koppel left has boiled over into special disgust these past few days as they devote more and more time to the Amish shooting. It’s passed from real emotion to the hype words – “horror”, “slaughter” – as if they have to milk every ounce. More importantly, the more they talk about the perpetrator and “trying to understand what made him do it,” the more I worry that some other seriously sick person will see a copycat crime as a way to get the whole country involved in understanding why he’s angry as well.</p>
<p>I really do feel for administrators & teachers, trying to figure out how to keep students safe AND educate young people. There are so many things that faculty must be aware of & responsible for; life is SO much more complicated than it was when we were younger. </p>
<p>Sure even in the 1970s (in our rough public neighborhood school), we had some gang fights, but people mainly used their fists and sometimes a chain or something rather than guns and knives. We did have one kid who came into our social studies class OD’d on drugs; he threatened & scared all of us & our elderly female teacher. Fortunately, he passed out & the ambulance came before any serious harm was done to anyone. When my younger brother was in grade school in the 70s, a teacher was assaulted (physically shaken) by a student & the teacher quit teaching thereafter due to the stress & trauma. These events were considered quite shocking to all of us, then & now.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, just the other day, there was a lockdown of a preschool & elementary school in our neighborhood because it was suspected that an armed escapee was in the area.</p>
<p>At my kids private HS, there are uniformed guards at entrances & exits to the school & parking lots; the grounds are enclosed by fencing. This is how the school has been for at least the past 20 years & probably much longer.</p>
<p>When the school built a new building & parking structure, they included free parking & an air-conditioned room for police officers to write their reports (my S claims it’s a police substation, but I don’t see an official sign, so I’m not sure it’s an OFFICIAL substation); in any case, there is an unobtrusive but noticable police presence. Off duty officers are paid to direct traffic every morning & for special events as well. The school has not had any trouble with violence or vandalism.</p>
<p>I see some legislators are suggesting that teachers and school administrators be armed. Along with the skills and subject tests required to get a credential, some day they might also have to check you out on the firing range.</p>
<p>Well, I’m a teacher by profession and no way would I ever want to be armed. I could never shoot anyone, sorry. I don’t think that is the answer. Not saying YOU think it but just commenting. </p>
<p>(I do recall doing riflery back in overnight camp years ago)</p>
<p>So…maybe that means we should arm bank tellers, postal workers, and, well…everyone! </p>
<p>Um, nope.</p>
<p>(come to think of it, not that this is the answer, but the way bank tellers often have a button they can push to send a signal to police…I think they do…perhaps there could be such alarm systems in classrooms, that signal to police as well)</p>
<p>If you are allowed to use phones in emergencies, why not have one in the school? If in certain circumstances, using “wordly” or “english” tools is okay, why not in a classroom</p>
<p>It may not have helped in this case…just a questions, though</p>
<p>I’m not up on it, but do they allow phones in emergencies? If so, it does make sense to have one where there are many children in case of emergency, yes. I don’t know their beliefs or “policies” enough, or which circumstances they use phones. But having one there is like having a fire extinguisher or other safety device in case. I’d have to hear their take on how that fits in with their guidelines. But in general, obviously all of us who are not Amish wouldn’t think twice to have a phone in a school setting.</p>
<p>Having MORE guns around everywhere seems it would contribute to the problem, not the solution. I definitely agree that whatever the solution is, arming more folks & having more weapons around is NOT one of them.</p>
<p>Having a “panic” button installed at more places could help, some situations. Sad that these things are being needed these days. Cell phones could be useful in these situations as well for texting or speaking.</p>
<p>HIMom, I agree that more guns or arming more people would contribute to the problem, not solve it. </p>
<p>There is no clear cut solution but simply some measures that could be taken to make it harder to commit such horrific crimes. I don’t know what metal detectors cost but just like not wanting guns or knives on planes to jeopardize a group of people, we need to keep guns and knives out of school buildings with groups of children. Schools are supposed to be safe havens.</p>
<p>Also, the panic button thing I suggested earlier, is akin to fire alarms in the hallways…put a panic button inside each classroom that goes to police. It doesn’t solve things but is just one measure and quicker reaction time by police.</p>
<p>Somehow, the root problems need to be addressed. There is such alienation & breakdown of families which cause/allow these kids to become so angry and violent. Bullying & ridicule may contribute to it as well. The folks who erupt in violence don’t spring out of the ground like sci-fi movies. They come from homes & families–obviously as a society we need to take a closer look at how violent folks are bred & what can be done to interrupt the cycle. Drugs/alcohol in the home, low wages, mental health issues may also play roles.</p>