<p>Jumping in on this, I love a good science/religion debate.
I’ll take the science side.
@alberttkimm: I mean no offense at all when I say this. But we really should not think too highly of ourselves. As complex as the human body maybe, the biological complexity is not much different from other organisms. It’s merely the higher degree of neurological complexity that gives you that sense of “it’s too unreal for it not to be created without a purpose”. One should also ask: Why does one need a God-given “purpose”. As human beings with higher levels of conscious and intelligence, we have the special gift of creating our own life purposes. Through science I have seen that life is tremendously more beautiful and perplexing than when everything is explained in a couple lines from a holy book. ( I was a Christian for 7 years). And that ends my rant.</p>
<p>When you say that human brings have “higher levels of conscious and intelligence” compared to other beings, why do you think that it is that way? Why must mere inferior beings, say bugs, be weaker than us? Sure we can apply “the strongest will survive” theory, but it can be stated that the ancestry of bugs have always been inferior to human beings. Why? Why couldn’t they be made stronger than us? And all other creatures? Why are humans on top? There must be a reason. And all anti-creationism support their theories that the existence of the universe happened by chance. No reasoning, just chance. So with this said, there is a lack of parallelism.</p>
<p>Is there a reason with Christianity? Yes. God made humans first. He made them with a purpose, and everything else was just support or 2nd-rate to humans. Maybe that’s why we have “higher levels of conscious and intelligence.” And this actually HAS a reason.</p>
<p>Other than this, I have another question for you guys. How do you think our level of morality developed? Why is it that we feel some degree of guilt/regret/etc- when we hit others, or when we do something wrong? How come we can’t feel this same level of guilt and weary if for example, we helped others? Basically what I’m saying is, if our society flip-floped what was right or wrong, would we feel the same level of guilt?</p>
<p>No. Why? Holy Spirit. We feel this voice in our head when we do things that are against the Bible, which is pretty much against our government’s rules. Our country’s restrictions and rules are all based on the Bible. Everyone should know that. What God says in the Bible, and what he wants is what our conscience and morality is telling us. It is also a universal truth, we will always feel hostility towards one another if we hit each other in the face, or we will always feel happiness when we get loved by another. Regardless of what country you are from, IT IS THE SAME. It isn’t in our genes, it is in the HOLY SPIRIT that is within us.
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So how do we know when something is right or wrong? Why can’t cursing at someone else be a good thing? Can you explain that? No. In our world’s history NEVER has it been a blessing to be beaten down (excluding ceremonial purposes). Never has it also been a bad thing (meaning, feeling guilt or fear, omitting any possibilities of repercussions or anything) to help another person. (“Love your neighbors as your own self”) Regardless if anyone told us what was right and wrong, we FEEL this guilt, and we can easily distinguish within our own self what is right and wrong. This is the holy spirit. I want to see someone argue against this.</p>
<p>edit: And when you say that humans have higher levels of conscious and intelligence, in the end, we don’t, because we cannot COMPLETELY see and understand the reason of our existence in this world. Even for Christians, we cannot prove our faith through mere physical evidence. But this is a faith, and it would not be a faith if we could very so prove an exact evidence. But inevitably, this makes us inferior, and if you are assuming that we can understand the exact aspect of universe, you are just fooling yourself. We are inferior at the hands of a God who has created us.</p>
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In what way do you mean first?</p>
<p>What it says it what it says, God’s first living creation was humans</p>
<ol>
<li>My Biology AP warned me (and the class) directly of this. You must avoid using words such as inferior, superior, advanced, etc. (all relative descriptions) in describing and comparing species. Natural selection, as you stated “the strongest will survive” theory, works to select those traits that are favorable to an individuals survival and likelihood of reproducing and passing on its genes. However, the point is that natural selection does not guarantee the evolution of a new species. This must be noted.
Anyway, why do you believe that humans are on top? 2000~3000 years ago, when the Bible was written, humans could be easily killed by wild beasts, there is no argument that we are “stronger” than them. As I have said, the only thing that has helped us rise to the top of the food chain is our social behavior, inventive minds-- all results of the evolution of our larger and more sophisticated brains. </li>
<li>My question to you: Why did you select Christianity? Because you were born into it? Why is Christianity the right religion and not Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism? How do you know which god is the right god, if each religion has believers that say similar things about their spiritual experiences?</li>
<li>Morality has been found to be most likely an evolutionary development that followed parallel with our evolving social culture. For example, things such as compassion is something we feel often on the streets of cities, where homeless people beg for money and food, we feel the desire to help them out. Although in the modern era, this gives no benefit to us ( besides the good feelings), thousands of years ago with the human population in the thousands, would have been a important emotion to help a fellow human being out, which helps propogate the species. There’s more, but I’ll skip it.</li>
<li>Our country’s restrictions and rules ( United States), are not based on the Bible. Everyone should NOT know that, as that is factually incorrect. Some of the most Founding Fathers were the most liberal and secular of their time. The Constitution is based on what WORKS for the citizens of a democratic republic. Although I must hand it to you Bible, you have a lot of common sense ;)</li>
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<li><p>I never meant to just state “strength,” but superiority overall. Because humans were superior even back then, simply because we are way more intelligent/etc-. You know what I mean. “All results of the evolution of our large and more sophisticated brains” - this must have a reason also, WHY ARE HUMANS MORE SOPHISTICATED? That was my first question. And anti-creationists don’t support their theories with reason, they support it with chance</p></li>
<li><p>Because Christianity is the only religion that is directly parallel and lacks contradiction with the history of this universe. For example, the Book of Islam (or muslim, or etc-) contradicts itself with history - it claims that Jesus Christ was never crucified, yet he was, and this is proven by history.</p></li>
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<p>Buddhism is not a religion in my opinion, just a praise to a man who was wise. He isn’t a God, he was a mere human being.</p>
<p>And everything else is just ridiculous</p>
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<li><p>You did not really answer my question, and compassion was shown throughout history, not just through the “evolution” of social culture". It did not “develop” as you are saying it is. The Bible clearly showed instances and events of morality that is almost EQUIVALENT to the level it is today</p></li>
<li><p>You did not even give any evidence or proof of your statement, the constitution was based on morality; what they THOUGHT was right/and wrong. And what they thought what was right and wrong was from their conscience, which I’m saying is the holy spirit. So so far this subject is still in the midst of the air haha</p></li>
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<p>Note: I really hate arguing about this, but I just want to say this to all of you guys, for those who do not believe in God, I don’t get you all, I mean, there is not consequence of believing in God. Though you cannot simply see him, there is a reason why it is called a “faith.” Perhaps God did show himself - then there would be no reason for our existence. He created us in hopes for love and our loyalty to him. If we saw him, a “faith” would be diminished. A love that is based on faith is much more stronger then a love that is based on mere sight. </p>
<p>There is no consequence, so I don’t see why you guys don’t give it a chance. what if you guys are wrong? Wanna live in Hell? I’m just saying, there is nothing for you to lose, but nothing for you to gain by being an atheist. You will be amazed at the lack of weariness and sadness in those who believe, and how blessed they can be. Perhaps those are the things that prove our faith.</p>
<p>Before we proceed, I need to ask you:
Do you have a good understanding of the theory of evolution? And mind that theory in science does not have the same implication as many creationists think. Theory in science signifies a group of thorough and supported-by-evidence explanations of a natural phenomena. So the theory of evolution isn’t just a random idea Darwin threw up. Just saying. :)</p>
<p>I’m agnostic and this is my personal view of all religions.</p>
<p>Religion was made to explain the unexplainable. Slowly but surely science is beginning to explain the unexplainable. With different views there is bound to be tension.</p>
<p>On the contrary I do believe that not necessarily people, but life, things, the universe is here for a reason beyond the comprehension of mankind.</p>
<p>I’d also like to add the most popular religions are the ones that are 2,000 + years old which makes them inherently pure, holy, and unable to be tainted.</p>
<p>My perception is say there was a modern day Moses who claimed he talked to God through a burning bush. You know what society would say? The bush was cannabis; you’re a pothead and get a job. They wouldn’t worship the person.</p>
<p>Good insight, AvidStudent!
May I ask why you are agnostic and not full on atheist?</p>
<p>I never said it was random, what I meant was that their theories say that our existence DID happen by chance, since how us as living organisms developed by the chance of the mixture of the chemicals or whatever. At this point I’m really deprived to look it up, but I know the basic idea, and that the theory says that the exact and PRECISE situation of chemicals “created” us.</p>
<p>AvidStudent, this was the same case for Jesus and the Jews, they believed that what he was saying was a blasphemy, and that he was a ridiculous FREAK. But the few believed in Him, and that would be the same if for some reason a modern Moses did arise. It would be the same case as a modern Moses, which supports my statement of a constant level and degree of modern morality just as like historical times. Why do you think Jesus was ACTUALLY crucified for? It was because of what he was saying, that he was God.</p>
<p>Oh noooo.
Quick biology lesson seperate from debate:
The theory of evolution in no way or form describe the arisal of life from organic constituents. For the “creation” of life, you have to discuss the theories of abiogenesis. Clearing that up.
But here we go. Obviously you know that humans didn’t come out of a soup of chemicals. However organic molecules that are found in amino acids and other biomaterials for the construction of cells, were readily available in the early Earth (I just hope you aren’t a 6000 year old Earth type of guy). These organic molecules are often found on asteroids and other planets as well. The earliest cells were the most simple structures-- even simpler than the Archaebacteria found today. Figuring that into the equation, it was quite likely, although the odds were stacked against the formation of life, for the first cell to arise. And really, ONE cell is all it takes. Then leave it up to CELL THEORY (all cells arise from cells) and evolution to produce the wonderful biological diversity that we see here on earth billions of years later.</p>
<p>Jesus, his followers, writers of the Bible corrupted any sense of morality that he had. If Jesus wrote the Bible I’d consider it a good book, nothing more, nothing less. </p>
<p>Anyways I’m agnostic because science hasn’t proven things like why the universe was created. Big Bang Theory is a theory, not a theorem.</p>
<p>Personally I think things like religion are great for society. It controls the masses. It instills morals and ethics among billions of people. Religions help police people. Christianity alone does the job of a billion police officers.</p>
<p>Sorry, I wasn’t explaining the TOE, I was moreso on the side of anti-creationist theories on the existence of humans. But of course, it had to have been chance, unless someone purposely grabbed each of those biomaterials/chemicals and combined them to create the human like Victor Frankenstein did. But there were odds and chances right? the cell had to arise, and that was with the chances of it combining with the amino acids and biomaterials</p>
<p>Good night fellas, hopefully we all got some insight tonight. I just hope you guys keep yourselves open-minded and all that, consider everything.</p>
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Huh? I thought the Bible said that humans were the last.</p>
<p>^ That is correct. I’m not sure where alberttkimm is coming from with that.</p>
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<p>Interestingly, they did the same thing back then… It took a whole series of escalating miracles, each more impossible than the last, before even his own people would believe him.</p>
<p>If a modern Moses responded to our criticizm by declaring that the BP oil disaster would happen on the next day, and it did, and then he claimed that a new swine flu epidemic would strike during the next month, and it did, and then he claimed that when he raised his staff a blackout of all telecommunications would occur for several days, and it did, THEN we might start to pay attention.</p>
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<p>While we may not be genetically far-removed from some animals, I think you grossly underestimate the vast significance of our “neurological complexity.” We are able to contemplate our own deaths, our own existences, something seemingly no other lifeform known to man is able to do. The phenomena of consciousness is complex and not completely understood in science. When we encounter another sapient species, I will have reason to believe that we are not “special.” Also, naturalistic science would have us believe that we live a deterministic existence, however, if we believe in a personal God with a plan for us, we also live a deterministic existence. I would rather be part of a machine with a definite purpose than part of one with no defined purpose whatsoever–one of my personal reasons for leaning towards believing in a God (I’m probably an Agnostic Theist, if that makes any sense, or maybe a Deist).</p>
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<p>Coming up with an arbitrary, self-defined purpose is as contrived as making God or some particular religion the purpose of one’s life. I hope you understand that you are also unwittingly admitting that you believe that Science/Understanding the Universe is our “Divine” Purpose. Science holds that the universe is a completely naturalistic and humanly understandable phenomena–as arrogant as believing that human beings hold a special place in said universe. We, by the very nature of our own mental processes, cannot know the true limits of our own cognition. And, if there are limits, we may never fully understand the universe.</p>
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<p>Um, not sure what you’re saying here, for all of recorded history humans have been undeniably dominant. The ancients were no less inventive and resourceful than we are today, and were probably more so.</p>