Second Ebola patient

[saintfan]

<p>However . . . it sounds like this nurse may have become infected after Duncan reached the point of no return when he was at maximum fluid output of assorted varieties. None of the other patients excepting the Spanish priests reached that point.</p>

[actingmt]

<p>Here are some gory details from the AP…</p>

<p><a href=“http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EBOLA_HOSPITAL_STAFF?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-13-18-45-19”>http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EBOLA_HOSPITAL_STAFF?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-13-18-45-19&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[jym626]

<p>Bay,
Read upthread. She is 26 – had just finished a certification. And my analogy wasn’t obscure. It was to point out that some have not had enough experience to take on a high risk task. Really, it was pretty simple.</p>

[sorghum]

<p>

You can’t get it without breaking protocol, period. Doctors with Borders and CDC doctors have been treating Ebola for many years without an infection. I will say that they probably were performing more aggressive measures on this patient than in a lot of hospitals in Africa. Not sure they have ventilators and dialysis machines in the places where Ebola routinely occurs.

</p>

<p>The protocol may be inadequate for the US situation with the much more aggressive measures used. I would not assume that the scientific understanding of how and when the virus is infectious is fully developed.</p>

[actingmt]

<p>According to a discussion on some news show today she may have been doing something as simple as moving bedsheets. </p>

[Bay]

<p>

Really, it was pretty simple.

</p>

<p>It was a simple thing that did her in. Sad, and preventable.</p>

[jym626]

<p>They are acknowledging that the dialysis and intubation, in what were probably extreme heroic attempts to save him when, given the probable liquefied state of his organs probably caused excessive exposure to fluids in what was a heroic, probably overly so, futile attempt to save him.</p>

[jym626]

<p>No bay, what I meant is that my analogy was simple. It might be helpful for you to go back and read upthread the posts that describe her training and the treatment provided to the patient at the end stages.</p>

<p>Read post # 300 <a href=“Second Ebola patient - #301 by saintfan - Parent Cafe - College Confidential Forums”>Second Ebola patient - #301 by saintfan - Parent Cafe - College Confidential Forums;

<p>And don’t forget to look at the photo of her with her adorable Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. who they say , thank heavens, they will not euthanize.</p>

<p>Yes, her illness probably was preventable if they had not gone to those extreme measures and there hadn’t been a protocol breach. We don’t know what her specific treatment or patient care duties were with him.
Maybe someone, not me, is interested in wading though the thousands of pages of medical records that the family released.</p>

<p>Whatever point you are trying to make, bay, please make it.</p>

[Bay]

<p>I’m not trying to make any point, other than that there is a lot of conflicting information being provided by the professionals on this and other threads, about what someone like me should think about Ebola. Whether it is a threat to our safety or not? Whether US professionals know how to handle it or not? People seem to have firm opinions about it all, yet the facts do not indicate that we have it under control. It is not simple, like getting a haircut, to me.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Since when has there ever been anything but differing opinions on cc?? </p>

<p>I dont see much conflicting info. Most of the healthcare folks here are saying that there was a breach probably due to a combination of heroic efforts and a tired staff with limited experience dealing with such hazmat situations. there are a few who want the flights stopped, or passengers more thoroughly screened to try to keep the exposure down, and then there are the few wingnuts who just want to chastise/mock the governmental agencies and their leaders and throw out a few jabs doused with quazi statistics, mostly clipped and trimmed (and wrong) , to send people into a panic and stir up controversy. Must be fun to some to be an alarmist. JMO. </p>

[jym626]

<p>One last thought, and probably has crossed many minds-- the last ditch efforts to save this guy, with dialysis and intubation were probably attempted when it was beyond likely that his organs were still intact and could benefit from these procedures. If they were already liquefying, sticking a tube down a squishy, fragile at best esophagus or trying to get a central line in for dialysis and blood filtration was not only messy but extremely messy. They were probably trying everything to keep this fellow alive, as losing this patient after first misdiagnosing him could lead to a very $$$$$ settlement.</p>

[Bay]

<p>Just a last thought from me, as well: Were Dr. Brantly and Ms. Writebol inexperienced/unprepared/untrained when treating Ebola patients in Africa? If they were experienced, then the breaches that led to their infections were not the same as Ms. Pham’s. </p>

[jym626]

<p>IIRC, one of those was exposed outside the treatment facility. Or that might have been the Norwegian victim. I dont recall the circumstances.</p>

[BunsenBurner]

<p>"Were Dr. Brantly and Ms. Writebol inexperienced/unprepared/untrained when treating Ebola patients in Africa? If they were experienced, then the breaches that led to their infections were not the same as Ms. Pham’s. "</p>

<p>Both Brantley and Writebol lived in the community where Ebola was present. Different situation - their exposure could have come from coming into contact with Ebola outside the hospital. </p>

[awcntdb]

<p>QUESTION: The salient question to ask people is, “Which disease is more dangerous and which would you rather get if there were a disease going around?” That is where the rubber hits the road.</p>

<p>I break numbers down based on fundamental, defining criteria and do not just throw out a mass number that really is not applicable to a situation. Fine, we can agree that we parse and dissect numbers differently. </p>

<p>I am looking at the standard HEALTHY person when I look at numbers and comparing them to Ebola. I highly suspect others are looking ware combining cohorts and including the meningitis high risk groups with already immuno-compromised and immune-limited (e.g., infants, elderly, already sick) systems in heir numbers.</p>

<p>Instead of battling on the thread about the interpretation of numbers, I say just let people to answer the above question for themselves given the mortality rates and course of each disease: bacterial meningitis, viral meningitis, and Ebola.</p>

<p>Bacterial Meningitis (Cleveland Clinic)</p>

<p>Pull Quote from the Cleveland Clinic, a leading infectious disease research institution:</p>

<p>

Can bacterial meningitis be cured?</p>

<p>There is a 10 percent death rate from bacterial meningitis but if diagnosed and treated early enough, most people recover.

</p>

<p>

Children between the ages of one month and two years are the most susceptible to bacterial meningitis.</p>

<p>Adults with certain risk factors are also susceptible. You are at higher risk if you abuse alcohol, have chronic nose and ear infections, sustain a head injury or get pneumococcal pneumonia.</p>

<p>You are also at higher risk if you have a weakened immune system, have had your spleen removed, are on corticosteroids because of kidney failure or have a sickle cell disease.</p>

<p>Additionally, if you have had brain or spinal surgery or have had a widespread blood infection you are also a higher risk for bacterial meningitis.

</p>

<p>Please note that there is a MOST susceptible group, where the majority of deaths take place, .i.e, infants. </p>

<p>Also note that there are other distinct risk categories with the highest mortality rates among those who are already compromised in some way. </p>

<p>However, most HEALTHY people do survive and the standard HEALTHY person has more than a 90%+ chance of recovery, and if caught early, it hits 95% for a HEALTHY person.</p>

<p><a href=“Bacterial Meningitis: Symptoms, Causes & Treatment”>https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases_conditions/hic_Bacterial_Meningitis&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Bacterial Meningitis (CDC)</p>

<p>

Appropriate antibiotic treatment of the most common types of bacterial meningitis should reduce the risk of dying from meningitis to below 15%, although the risk remains higher among young infants and the elderly.

</p>

<p>

Healthy people can carry the bacteria in their nose or throat without getting sick. Rarely, these bacteria can invade the body and cause disease. Most people who ‘carry’ the bacteria never become sick.

</p>

<p>Again, there are risk groups for this disease which have higher mortality rates. However, a HEALTHY person can survive bacterial meningitis if treated, at rates 6 - 9X higher than the survivability of any Ebola infection cohort.</p>

<p>This is why for the Princeton campus, for example, has not had one death from the meningitis outbreak, even though they had cases several cases BEFORE they got approval for the vaccine from Europe. I believe one student at another school died because he was around Princeton students one weekend and did not know to get assistance when his symptoms appeared when he got back to his school.</p>

<p>EBOLA COMPARISON - Ebola kills the standard HEALTHY person at a 60 - 90% rate regardless of one’s immune system health.</p>

<p>RELEVANT ADDITIONAL QUESTION - How many HEALTHY people can carry the Ebola virus in their bodies, as a reservoir, without getting severely sick, with most dying? None that we know of!</p>

<p>BOTTOM LINE - Bacterial meningitis is a very treatable disease, and one can easily survive it without long-term damage. In contrast, Ebola is not treatable, only supportive assistance is currently possible. And even if caught early, most Ebola-infected HEALTHY people still die. </p>

<p><a href=“Bacterial Meningitis | CDC”>http://www.cdc.gov/meningitis/bacterial.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Viral Meningitis (CDC)</p>

<p>Pull Quote from CDC link:</p>

<p>

Viral meningitis is often less severe than bacterial meningitis and usually resolves without specific treatment.

</p>

<p>

The symptoms of viral meningitis usually last from 7 to 10 days, and people with normal immune systems usually recover completely.

</p>

<p>Again, I repeat that a HEALTHY person actually recovers from viral meningitis even without any treatment and most do not know they even had the disease!</p>

<p>EBOLA COMPARISON - Ebola kills the standard HEALTHY person at a 60 - 90% rate regardless of one’s immune system health</p>

<p>BOTTOM LINE - Viral meningitis is a very treatable disease. Better yet, a HEALTHY person can easily survive it without long-term damage and WITHOUT treatment. In contrast, even if caught early, the overwhelming majority of Ebola-infected HEALTHY people die.</p>

<p><a href=“Viral Meningitis | CDC”>http://www.cdc.gov/meningitis/viral.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Ebola Data:</p>

<p>We have discussed Ebola and its 60 -90% mortality rate for HEALTHY people in detail, so no need to quote anything for that.</p>

<hr>

<p>QUESTION: Therefore, it is up to each standard HEALTHY person to ask themselves, "“Which disease is more dangerous and which would I rather get if there were a disease going around?”</p>

<p>You may reach a different answer than I, but since I am healthy; my kids are healthy; and my wife is healthy; all with no known immune system compromises, then I would happily take my chances with bacterial meningitis and viral meningitis rather than Ebola, any day of the week. I understand that you may reach a different conclusion. </p>

<p>MY CONCLUSION - If you are a typical HEALTHY person, not an infant, and not elderly, meningitis is not a mortal threat to you. In contrast, Ebola is a mortal threat to everyone, not to mention the financial threat and lifestyle threat to communities required to contain its spread. </p>

<p>Again, I understand your conclusion may differ. </p>

[dietz199]

<p>

QUESTION: The salient question to ask people is, “Which disease is more dangerous and which would you rather get if there were a disease going around?” That is where the rubber hits the road.

</p>

<p>DS is at UCSB, one of the campuses affected by the Meningitis B. Given the choice between him living a dorm with a Meningitis B infected student and a dorm with an Ebola infected student…I for one would go with option 1. </p>

<p>Where would you want YOUR children to be? </p>

<p>A flight ban won’t be 100% effective, but it would be more than 0% effective…which is where the current non-ban status leaves us as we type away.</p>

[katliamom]

<p>Those whose conclusions are based on science and a cursory understanding of risk – their conclusions will certainly differ. But hey, if you feel better having gotten this off your chest, that’s good too. </p>

[BunsenBurner]

<p>“EBOLA COMPARISON - Ebola kills the standard HEALTHY person at a 60 - 90% rate regardless of one’s immune system health.”</p>

<p>I have to point out that that is the mortality rate among “healthy” African population. In said population, bacterial meningitis kills more than 50% of victims. There are many contributing factors, but mostly that populations’ immune systems are weakened due to malnutrition and many concurrent infections, such as HIV, TB, malaria and other parasites, etc. Of course, medical care does play a role, but to compare the actual rates, you need to find comparable samples of people and control for many factors. If we are talking about science, let’s compare apples to apples.</p>

[BunsenBurner]

<p>Oh, snap. Ebola will hit the US HARD!!!</p>

<p><a href=“How the Ebola outbreak is set to make the price of chocolate soar | Daily Mail Online”>How the Ebola outbreak is set to make the price of chocolate soar | Daily Mail Online;

<p>It was a good thing I replenished my doomsday supply of Theo’s this weekend.</p>

[saintfan]

<p>Darn! I drove by Fran’s today but didn’t think to stock up. :-S </p>