Senate investigation into prescription opioids

Why is ibuprofen out of a doctor’s arsenal?—It’s not. But the “only a doc can give it to you” mystique is gone.
Sorry, but a lot of patients expect something more than " go home, take two aspirin and call me in the morning" (even when that IS the best advice.
Another factor is that recommended does of ibuprofen has drastically been reduced from years past either because of real studies about efficacy or worry about lawsuits with possible side effects (not sure which one).

Cardinal–Tylenol is good for pain relief (just as effective as ibuprofen) and works for fever also but it is not an anti-inflammatory which makes it less effective for conditions such as arthritis or muscle pain as examples (it may relieve pain but not the inflammation associated with the condition).

Ibuprofen (Motrin/Advil) does all three–pain relief, fever reducing and acts as an anti-inflammatory.

They each have different pathways of degradation in the body–Tylenol taken with Motrin (or aspirin) may increase the Motrin effectiveness.

Tylenol may be harder on the liver. Motrin (and aspirin) may be harder on the stomach.

So it’s a give and take depending on a patient’s condition.

And doctors should firmly tell patients that. Accommodating patients with unnecessary treatments or drugs can lead to worse medical outcomes and/or increased medical costs. Prescribing opioid narcotics when ibuprofen and/or acetaminophen is sufficient just increases risks and costs. Another example is prescribing antibiotics for what is a viral infection.

Advil etc is not just bad for stomach it is also very bad for kidneys.

A doctor who believes that the patient’s pain can best be relieved by over the counter medicines like Motrin, but who writes a prescription for opioids because the patient expects to walk out with a prescription, should lose his license. That’s unconscionable. It’s bad enough when a doctor writes a prescription for unnecessary antibiotics, but unnecessary opioids? No excuse. [X-post with ucbalumnus :slight_smile: ]

Thanks for the info about the efficacy of Tylenol for kinds of pain that don’t involve inflammation. Shows my narrow view-- whenever I think about pain relief, it’s always in the context of inflammation, from things like bike rides and bike crashes, not migraines. So Tylenol is useless for arthritis, useless for back pain, but helps for headaches and stuff like that. Come to think of it, Tylenol helped when I had a scratched cornea and was in the wilderness days from medical help.

The idea of opiods as a gateway drug to me is a red herring, the problem is they are addictive themselves, not that they lead to heroin use.

I don’t think anyone is saying that opiods should be banned, that isn’t the point, when you have someone in chronic pain like the poster with the husband with the back that is fusing or someone with pain from cancer or some other condition, it is kind of stupid to argue we shouldn’t give them relief because they will become addicted, when someone is in severe pain that is frankly stupid. My mom told me the story of an uncle of hers dying of cancer back in the late 50’s, he was in end stage cancer and was in agony, and remembering the family asking the doctor about upping his morphine dose, and the doctor worried he would get addicted…which while I appreciate the sentiment, is ridiculous.

The problem we are talking about happening would be the over prescription of these drugs, whether it is prescribing a 30 day supply rather than a 2 day supply, or prescribing it without perhaps prescribing something less dangerous to see (these days you can get a prescription sent electronically to a local pharmacy, if pain med isn’t working then you go to the next step). In some ways it is like the over use of antibiotics, which while it has tapered off, was a real problem (sorry, the superbugs out there are not a myth, and they can be traced to the overuse of antibiotics in both people and worse, in meat production),. Often that happened when someone would come into a doctor’s office complaining of something, doctor takes a look, and says “It is viral” and the patient insisting and getting anti biotics (and this has been documented, folks, there are studies out there about why/how they get overprescribed), not all but enough doctors saw them as ‘magic bullets’ rather than something to be used as sparingly as possible.

Someone hit the nail on the head, that the practice of pain management is not that well understood, there are a lot of variablest to how people react, everyone is different, I react strongly to pain meds (tylenol3 which is tylenol with codeine in a very low dose made me loopy, I once had percoset and was somewhere out near pluto), and generally don’t need more than aspirin or ibuprofen, my wife had gum work done and percoset didn’t help her much. I think there is a tendency to assume the worst and call out the big guns for most people (and that is just my impression, not scientific).

The reality is that we have a raging problem with Opiod addiction and while probably a large percent is fed by the illegal drug trade that in turn is fed by the Mexican Cartels or by shady operators on the fringes of the legal side of things, but there are also a lot of people ending up hooked because they initially got it legally (Rush Limbaugh, anyone, he who once upon a time used to say shoot all the drug addicts, to heck with rehab?). No, doctor’s overprescribing these is not the major cause but it is part of it, kids are getting hooked because mom or dad got a 30 day supply, they get left around, when maybe a 2 day supply would have been smarter, and we need to investigate the whole thing. I have no confidence with Christie being the ‘tsar’ of this, he claims to be compassionate towards those hooked but his tenure in NJ as governor has not shown him doing much other than proclaiming there is a problem, and his answer was laden with war allusions ie going after supply and arresting those in possession of it, rather than trying to drop it by trying to figure out why it is happening and tackle multiple paths.

In my N=1 experiment, Tylenol was very helpful to relieve any pain following my exploratory laparoscopy because it either did not involved any inflamed joints or muscles or there was no pain to begin with. :slight_smile:

Docs still prescribe extra-strength ibuprofen (800 mg?) or tell to take a horse dose of the OTC stuff. Again, my experiment of N=1.

OTC pain relievers can work well together, excedrin migraine is a combination of aspirin, acetominophen and caffeeine and it is one of the few things that works for me when I get a migraine as an example of synergy. As far as giving someone motrin not being ‘sexy’, then that proves my point that some doctors are giving hard core pain killers to make their patients think they are ‘doing something’, same way some doctors will allow themselves to be pressured into giving an antibiotic for a viral infection or similar things, and may explain why opiods are prescribed as much as they area (I don’t know that for certain, obviously, it is conjecture). It seems to me with pain meds that doctors often take the route that firefighters in dry places use with brush fires, they send out the cavalry because they don’t know how fast the fire will flare out and pull back unneeded units, doctors prescribe the heavy duty pain killer afraid that a lesser one wont work and the patient will blame them for feeling pain, rather than prescribing something less dangerous and if that doesn’t work then giving the patient the biggie. I can’t talk for all doctors, but I have had everything from minor sinus surgery, to having sliced open my hand with a utility knife, to strains and pulls, and in a lot of those cases I was given a prescription for things like Oxycontin right off the bat (I never filled the prescription, I was okay with OTC pain relievers).

Again, not saying these drugs are not needed, there are people with chronic problems, severe conditions that need that level, just saying maybe start with less strong pain killers and move up, rather than assume they will need the sledgehammer.

Here’s my final take on the issue.

This is absolutely key and I think is getting lost in the debate. I don’t derive much benefit from OTC pain medicine. If you do, there’s an easy solution for that: don’t fill the prescription. If your pain is gone after two days, then stopping taking the pain medicine. It’s not that complicated.

Most adults have some idea of how pain medicine affects them. The absolute last thing I want is for some doctor to say sit at home in agony for 48 hours after surgery and then I might consider writing you a prescription for something that actually works.

Very few doctors are writing 30-day initial supplies and nobody gets hooked after taking the drug for a couple of weeks. If any semi-reputable doctor continues to provide refills for months on end, you have some type of chronic condition or the underlying injury isn’t healing the way it’s supposed to.

Leftovers taken by those other than whom they were prescribed for may be part of the supply. E.g. a college student gets wisdom teeth removed and is prescribed several days’ worth of opioid narcotics. S/he only uses a few pills and stops. Then the unused pills remain forgotten until someone with substance abuse tendencies finds them while visiting.

Most opioid overdoses in the US are by prescription drugs, not Mexican heroin. And I question the claim that nobody gets hooked after two weeks on opioids-- where is the data to support this claim?

My county has several locked drop box locations for people’s leftover medications. I am glad they started that program. I didn’t want to flush them because our waste treatment system feeds into a small river. From what I have heard they are very popular. The pharmacies have information advertising it prominently placed at the pick up counter.

WHO is giving Oxycontin for a strain?! I didn’t get prescribed Oxycontin for major neck surgery, or when presenting to the ER with shingles, a most painful condition.

BTW, I’ve noticed just a tad of condescension from some posters (not necessarily on this thread, but many times when the subject comes up) about pain tolerance. “I had my leg amputated without anesthesia, and I only took 1 Tylenol afterwards, and that was in a disgusting moment of weakness!” “My kid had that condition/surgery/experience, and she didn’t even ask for an aspirin!”

Okay, an exaggeration, but there are all kinds of painful conditions people suffer where OTC is NOT sufficient to alleviate suffering. Everyone has different levels of what they can tolerate, and many have been very lucky not to suffer from an injury or surgery that results in excruciating or intractable pain. SOMETIMES narcotic pain prescription is not only appropriate, but really the only thing which will ease suffering. It’s important not to extrapolate one’s own experiences ( or lack thereof) to others and make sweeping statements about what any given individual should be able to tolerate.

In 2012, doctors in Alabama prescribed 143 opioid prescriptions per 100 people. You’re reading that right. One and a half prescriptions per person per year. In California, it was 57 prescriptions per 100 people-- and that was the lowest state.

So when you say who is giving oxycontin for a strain, well, obviously, in 2012 doctors were writing opioid prescriptions for many patients with a variety of conditions.

Nrdsb, if you referred to my post above as being condescending, note that I said that there might have been no pain after that procedure. I have no idea - I took the Tylenol, so maybe it worked for the pain, maybe it was ineffective but there was no pain from those 2 little incisions. Mr B did fill the 5 pill pain med prescription for me just in case. That went into cat litter. That said, there are cases where Tylenol etc. simply will not cut it. I just personally have not encountered them yet and I hope will never do.

I take Soma (carisoprodol) as a rescue drug when my back goes into spasm and I can’t get any relief no matter what else I’ve tried. I take it along with meloxicam. The last time I had those prescription filled - for 30 - was over 2 1/2 years ago and I still have plenty left. Taken properly - drugs like those can be very beneficial. I wouid hate for people who really need pain relief to not have access to these types of medications.

Tylenol does not work for me at all for pain.

I also get horrid headaches but they aren’t considered migraines as I don’t have most of the common migraine symptoms. 2 Excedrin + 800 mg of ibuprofen + a cup of black tea is the only thing that works for me. Strangely, coffee doesn’t help at all - only tea.

While I agree with this statement it does seem to kind of gloss over the “national epidemic” of opioid addiction that the article in the OP references. There is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed and our own experiences are obviously not transferring to the population at large.

@BunsenBurner, no, not in reaction to your post.

The fact that everyone has different pain response is a fact, I am lucky in that I have a fairly high tolerance for pain and OTC stuff works for me when I have had pain, that doesn’t mean I think someone else shouldn’t have stronger stuff. If you have a history of migraines and find that only percoset offsets the pain, it would be stupid to try Tylenol, and that is a key thing, when it comes to chronic conditions people and their doctor will know that X doesn’t work. However, what I am saying is that doctor’s seem in many cases to be assuming the worse case and prescribing these drugs, and the person on the other end is filling them even though they may not take them. From what I know from reading the media and listening to NPR, a significant percentage of the Opiod problem started with people with legal prescriptions who ended up hooked, and with young people it is because of the access to these drugs through someone who did have it prescribed. That doesn’t mean that opiods shouldn’t be used, it means to me that we should be looking at the statistics on prescriptions and figure out why so many are being prescribed, when I see a statistical deviation like the number of prescriptions per 100 people being 50 some odd in California and over 100 in Alabama, something is up there. It could be state law, maybe California is a lot more strict where doctors can prescribe opiods then Alabama is so doctors there tend to prescribe more (that is a supposition, not a fact, using it as an example).

With the Mexican reference, I am not talking Heroin. The synthetic form of Fentanyl someone mentioned (that was used on large animals) was being shipped from China to the drug cartels who were selling it in the US (China has cracked down on that, they have banned that drug), and dubious suppliers overseas sell to the cartels and they sell it in the US. There are also local drug dealers who work with shady operators and doctors to get things like Oxycontin as well.

The current OD fatality rate in our county would equate to over 90,000 nationwide if it continues through 2017.

It seems like a lot of people in the country are still in the “this can’t happen to me, those people are making their own beds” category. If you are one of those who does not yet know anyone who has died or lost children in this epidemic, chances are you will not remain so for much longer. :frowning:

They just published numbers in NYC, it has gone in the last 5 or 6 years from about 500 to 1300 , and this year the rate is accelerating. same with the rest of the region. Something similar happened in Indiana where the HIV infection and AIDS rates in a couple of counties were the highest in the country, and the political reaction was basically “serves them right” (most of it was caused by IV drug use and sharing needles). I wonder how long it will be before people will figure out ‘those people’ are ‘their people’ too. I saw a mini documentary the other day from farm country, where farmers are concerned over the future of their farms, many of them have seen their kids die of overdoses or are in the thralls of addiction, and this is being played out all over the country. I often wonder how many of those, rural or suburban, middle or upper class, who face this with their own kids were the same people a generation ago looking at issues of drugs among poor and inner city people and saying “they got themselves into that”, as I commonly heard growing up in middle class suburbia where of course such things could never happen…