<p>^^^Where do you get these definitions? I just quickly google and foud that to whine is to complain in a plaintive tone. What dictionary do you use that says it means unjustified. Words can have multiple definitions.</p>
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<p>It’s really important for the world to acknowledge publicly your daughter’s undisputed high achievements, isn’t it? Guess the Stanford acceptance letter just isn’t ENOUGH until everyone at the high school is made aware of her greatness.
Nope, quiet, refined pride just isn’t enough, I suppose.</p>
<p>I’m sure your daughter is a lovely young lady and I wish her success.</p>
<p>Blossom wrote an awesome post above. I hope you take it to heart.</p>
<p>I’m like Humpty Dumpty–words mean whatever I think they mean. Seriously, that’s what I take them to mean as used here. For example, I may rant about the fact that cashiers now routinely put the coins on top of the paper money when they make change, often causing the coins to spill all over the place, rather than placing the coins in my hand. It’s a minor annoyance, and I don’t plan to make a crusade over it, but I wouldn’t call that “whining.” To me, I would say “whining” is when somebody complains about, say, having class at 8:30 in the morning. When somebody thinks a coach or teacher has been unkind to their child, I don’t consider it whining to complain about it. And Pizzagirl, I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to get that it’s not about the recognition itself, it’s about the slight. Those are not the same.</p>
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<p>Unless the Chemistry award specifically SAYS “Award for the highest GPA in AP chemistry” or the Athlete award says “Award for fastest time around the track” –
then isn’t it pretty obvious that these awards are given on a combination of soft and hard criteria? I mean, really. Who actually thought otherwise?</p>
<p>GFG - I think part of the reason you get the reaction you do is that you persist on acting as though your D not getting an award is a personal snub. Is that how you advised disappointed students who didn’t get into Stanford? That it was a personal snub? Or was it just “it’s not that you weren’t deserving, they can only admit so many people”? There is quite a distinct difference between how you counseled Stanford rejectees to get over it and how you present yourself now.</p>
<p>And I really don’t think you want to go there in terms of only objective criteria figuring in to awards / acceptances. Because I think a heck of a lot of people could say that how well a student can hit / kick / throw a ball or otherwise perform athletically really should have no place in the objective criteria of whether they “deserve” a spot at an elite university. It seems to be that you want objective criteria when they favor your D at high school awards night, but you were more than happy to let the intangibles come into play when it came into the college admissions process.</p>
<p>Which is fine – and I don’t begrudge you, I’d play that card too if my kids were recruitable athletes – but it comes across as hypocritical.</p>
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<p>The perceived slight only comes when there is entitlement preceding it. </p>
<p>My kid’s not “slighted” by being turned down by (elite school) because he / she wasn’t entitled to a slot there in the first place. And GFG kid’s not “slighted” by not winning an award based on subjective criteria, because subjective is by definition – subjective.</p>
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Yes, that’s YOUR perception, but again, doesn’t make it universal. To me, they both mean, or can mean, basically the same tihing. Complaining for the sake of complaining, when your complaints are not likely to have any effect towards improving the thing you are complaining about. Venting, grumbling, grousing, bellyaching, whatever. It has nothing to do with justification.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I don’t know why you don’t get it. Getting into Stanford does not make up for bad behavior elsewhere. I know Stanford has holistic admissions and an admissions acceptance rate that makes getting in a crapshoot anyway. But if awards are supposed to be for objective criteria “best Math A student” for example - it’s annoying when they don’t give it out that way. (My son was in 7th grade not 8th, when he took Math A - so no award. In 8th grade he was in Math B, so no award again.) </p>
<p>GFG’s school has worded the title of the award to make GFG think that the award should have been awarded on more subjective criteria than it was. </p>
<p>Being passed over completely for awards does feel crummy. S2 top 6% of the class, nice kid isn’t getting anything. I feel mildly hurt for him as our school gives out awards to at least half the class for one thing or another. I’d feel worse, but he got a junior book award last year, when it was considerably more useful since it could go on his college application. I’d also feel worse if there were clearly an award he deserves - but there isn’t, not this year anyway! But the fact that he’s going to a great college, is completely irrelevant to the way I feel about the school not recognizing him.</p>
<p>I don’t know why I can’t walk away from this thread, lol.</p>
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<p>Did they really? I thought it was common sense that “Achievement in English” wasn’t strictly “who had the highest grades in English class” (etc.). </p>
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<p>Sure, it feels crummy - but there seems to be a lot of sympathy for the top kids who already have other accomplishments being passed over for awards; it feels no less crummy to the A- average kids, or the B+ average kids who sit there and watch the same kids get award after award after award. (Some of which may be deserved; some of which may be rewards for sucking-up; who knows?)</p>
<p>I doubt either of mine will get awards, though they are both top 10% and will (hopefully! are your fingers crossed yet?!) go on to some really good colleges. </p>
<p>I can choose to deal with that in two different ways, though. A) I can make a big deal of awards and let them know I’ve vetted their classmates as to who deserves them and who doesn’t so if I spot any hint of unfairness, I’m all over it; or B) I can not make a big deal of them and hey, if they win something, cool, congrats! and if not - let’s move on with the day. What’s a healthier approach? This is high school - as Blossom so nicely put it, it’ll be summed up a yearbook that gets shoved under the bed.</p>
<p>Well, I think we’re at an impasse. So long as so many of you believe personality should be a consideration in an academic or athletic achievement award, we aren’t going to agree.</p>
<p>I’d like to report on another awards banquet: For each student, the announcer read a bio which was, in most cases, written by the student himself. Although they were all there to be honored for the same general accomplishment, this allowed each kid to present about himself what he felt most proud of within that arena. Then, when it came time to award the scholarships, they pulled four names out of a hat just like a raffle. I felt that was appropriate given that the students came from different school environments (including vo-tech schools) and it would have been impossible to try to make a fair comparison among them all to select the “best”. I think they used to select the winners in committee, but must have gotten complaints and thus decided to make it random.</p>
<p>Regarding the recent discussion about teachers’ attitudes toward colleges and how that can affect how they feel about and advise a student, I’ll share the following. Every bio concluded with a statement regarding that student’s post high school plans. With the exception of a boy from the vo-tech school who was going to work in his field, everyone else was going off to college and the school was named. There were no oohs and ahhs for any of the private schools like Carnegie Mellon, Tufts, Dartmouth, NYU, or Lehigh. But UNC got a huge reaction from the crowd. The announcer even said it with awe in his voice.</p>
<p>Thanks, EPTR, I am indeed over it and have not had discussions with my daughter about any awards since the evening of that athletic ceremony. Even that was a brief exchange since D had things to do when she got back home. She expressed her feelings, I responded, and that was it. The only reason I even have time to keep posting is that I’ve been sick and don’t feel up to doing much else.</p>
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<p>IMO they are closely related concepts that carry somewhat different connotations. A rant is a complaint tinged with anger, while a whine is a complaint implying helplessness or victimhood - a sense of being “put upon.”</p>
<p>“So long as so many of you believe personality should be a consideration in an academic award, we aren’t going to agree”</p>
<p>Is passion for the subject and creativity personality traits?</p>
<p>Interesting about UNC.</p>
<p>“So long as so many of you believe personality should be a consideration in an academic award, we aren’t going to agree.”</p>
<p>There’s a third position here. I think academic awards are stupid and not worth any of our attention, regardless of how they are selected. I guess we aren’t going to agree about that, either. </p>
<p>Favoritism governed who got to be scissors monitor in second grade, too. I’ll save my limited energy for unfair distribution of things that matter, like the right to attend a decent public high school, seats in AP classes, competent college counseling, etc.</p>
<p>I’m curious to know if, other than elite college admission results, there are other magic pills which have the overarching effect of leveling all injustice. For example, if a salesman gets slighted for top producer award, despite having made the most money for the company as well as having brought in the most new accounts, would it be OK since he has a hot wife? And for how long will having gotten into an elite school be such a “prize” that it casts a glow over all of someone’s life? Once the Harvard grad is 30 years old, does it still work that way? “Sorry you didn’t get that job. You were the best qualified, but the boss hired his friend instead. But hey, you graduated from Harvard so it’s all good.”</p>
<p>Why can’t it be possible that a kid could actually be a gifted athlete AND also a student with qualifications equal to that of non-athletes at an elite school like Stanford? How would a mere parent know whether the admission decision was unfair or not in the case of D or anyone else? Couldn’t it be that the admissions committee (just like our well-meaning, fair-minded, seeing-more-than-parents-can teachers) obviously saw something in my D you haven’t gleaned from the limited information you have access to as a parent on a forum? Maybe it was her fantastic essay! (Isn’t that always the big out for perceived admissions unfairness?) </p>
<p>Maybe you all live in kinder, gentler communities, but around here people view the world as one big pizza pie. If I take a piece, then that is one piece not available for their or their children’s consumption, and so they’re not happy about it. (It most definitelly was not like that where I grew up) If my D wins a race, for example, that was something she took away from their child and so they’re angry and jealous. Then, if they have a chance, they’ll turn the tables–like maybe when the athletic booster club holds a banquet. There are so many kids in our high school, and so many who are high-achieving, that it can be overwhelming for parents and so they panic each time their child doesn’t make it somehow. Honestly, because of my upbringing, I really don’t feel like that most days. I see our world here in the great USA as much less limited and with great possibilities such that there is plenty to go around for people who work hard. BUT the fact that I’m optimistic about what’s out there for my kids does not mean I don’t hate it when there are incidences of unfair treatment of them.</p>
<p>“Why can’t it be possible that a kid could actually be a gifted athlete AND also a student with qualifications equal to that of non-athletes at an elite school like Stanford?”</p>
<p>Has anyone disputed this? I suspect your D is gifted both athletically and academically. You are indeed blessed. GFG, it sounds like you need to move for your mental health! Really, I don’t feel there is that much anger and jealousy in my community. Maybe we don’t have as many smart or gifted kids.</p>
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<p>That’s sad. I think I would move.</p>
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<p>Wow, I guess I DO live in a kinder, gentler community. 99.999% of the parents at our HS aren’t like that! (I do know of one dad…) When my D loses a race, she is upset at herself, with no thought at all about the girl who won; when my D loses a race, I am upset only because SHE is so hard on herself and is so upset. (My D only gets upset in events she is good at; if she’s running an event just because no one else will, she doesn’t get upset even if she comes in last.)</p>
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<p>Like I said, GFG, be careful where you go with this one. Because if I were in the mood to do so, I could say that I don’t think athletics should be a consideration in the admissions process to a highly elite university, which should be based solely on objective measures of academic success. But I’m willing to bet that you’re ok with that “exception to the numbers rule” when it benefits your daughter (which is not suggesting that your d doesn’t have the stats for Stanford - just that athletics may have given her a boost in admission the way that personality may have given some other kid the boost in the hs award).</p>
<p>What happens when it’s time for a job interview and your D with a 3.8 GPA at Stanford “loses” the plum job to someone with a 3.6 GPA at Stanford? Are you going to complain that she was entitled to that job and someone else took it? Surely you understand that Stanford picks among its applicants based on a combo of the soft and the hard … and the employer picks among its applicants based on a combo of the soft and the hard. Why is it so difficult to believe that the hs did as well? </p>
<p>I think they used to select the winners in committee, but must have gotten complaints and thus decided to make it random.</p>
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<p>Again, though, so what? You are really hung up on public recognition. If my D gets into her first choice ED school this fall, it will be a school that relatively few of the kids will have heard of, and the adults will have only heard of it through some particularly notable alumni. It probably won’t get the oohs and aahs it objectively “deserves.” So what? If she’s off to these adventures, what does it matter?</p>
<p>Re: the question posed to me in post #675–Yes, GTAlum, Pizzagirl disputes it in post #664.</p>
<p>Wow, pizzagirl, you really are intent on painting everything I say in the most self-serving, negative light possible. Really, your harsh disdain is out of place on a civil board like this.</p>
<p>Since the adult audience at the banquet were mostly teachers and school staff, their differential reaction to schools was merely a data point that related to an earlier discussion in which I had no part or vested emotional interest. I was not upset about it, nor am I whining, ranting, complaining, or feeling victimized. It just seemed to me that what I noted might be support for an earlier poster’s idea that since state schools train the majority of our teachers, teachers tend to have a special fondness for and interest in state schools over private schools when advising students.</p>
<p>PS–see my earlier post for agreement about the role of athletics in college admissions.</p>