Well, then this may make his decision easier.
AP Seminar is a required prerequisite for AP Research. It’s not waivable. You don’t need to concern yourself with the HS violating CB course audit requirements; they’ll have to deal with the CB on that. But he won’t be able to take the AP exam (if he even cares, since relatively few colleges give credit). But even if he were able to successfully register, the CB will cancel his exam.
AP Stats, Jazz band, DE English+ Public Speaking or Creative Writing would be solid choices and he doesn’t need AP Research.
I can see AP Lang being intertwined with AP Research, but I am having a really hard time seeing how AP Lit is. Lit is all about fictional works and writing about fictional works and AP Research is designing your own (non-fiction based) study.
That said, if they attach a note, it’s probably fine.
@skieurope - now that is interesting. Thank you for the heads up. And my bad - I found the complete description of the AP Capstone program in a different section of the bulletin. The course description does include AP Seminar as a prerequisite for AP Research, but also includes “with department approval”.
@MYOS1634 - his list is pretty varied. He’s got a few big reaches (Vanderbilt, Middlebury, Colby, William & Mary), a few targets (GW, Fordham, possibly American, possibly Furman which was an early favorite in this category but I think it will need a visit), and his in-state flagship for a safety. He needs to research a few more schools because to me the list feels… very short and incomplete.
The AP Micro is listed as “AP Microeconomics” and runs for the full year.
He is completing Spanish IV as an independent study this spring. The school was not able to offer this class in person this year, only online, and he did not want to take a language class online. He has elected not to take AP Spanish, and we support that choice.
Psychology was the only workable option that would fit in with the other APs he wants on the schedule and take the place of the third year of their integrated science sequence (mostly sophomores and juniors), which was what they originally offered because he is not keen on APES or other STEM APs. Integrated science class would have been just for the fall. Yes, psych is another social science, but it’s closer to his interests than APES.
Yes, it will be an issue for college because you cannot get credit for the same course twice. If he retakes, AP English again, what will be his senior year English? I agree with others that this is a hard pass. Let him take the dual enrollment course
I’m concerned that for the universities he’s aiming for, this schedule would be a bit of a problem, not because of DE English (which he should take and definitely not repeat AP Lit) but for the other core courses (science and social science + 1 class taken instead of fL since he’s already maxed out that should indicate academic interests/ability and/or curiosity).
I agree with the above reasoning. It makes sense that the child should not be able to get credit for “the same course” twice, and colleges would not like it. So it is clearly a risky idea to take it twice because the same course title would end up being repeated on his transcript, but this conversation has made me wonder about the actual content of AP English lit courses.
Just out of curiosity, would a student who takes AP English lit twice necessarily be reading the same books or covering the same material at a different school? I was under the impression that the specific books read in that course can vary widely from teacher to teacher or school to school. Am I wrong about that? My oldest kids’ schools don’t offer APs, but many kids take the English lit and other AP exams so I’ve looked at some practice tests over the years, and it just seems like it doesn’t matter what specific material is covered in their English classes as long as they learn to write fairly formulaic analytical essays on books and poems. So I guess that I always assumed that AP English Lit at school A might have a different set of books and syllabus than AP English Lit at school B or C.
Of course you are correct. Jane Austen is not Edith Wharton is not Henry James.
BUT- in a college literature sequence, students aren’t just reading more/different. They are learning more sophisticated analytical tools and critical thinking… to go beyond what you describe as the formulaic approach to understanding a work of literature. The assumption is that a seminar on Tolstoy weaves in a ton of content on Russian society, history, political thinking, religion, etc. which is necessary to understand War and Peace.
In a HS Lit class- even an AP class- there will be context for sure. But typically not primary sources other than the actual work of literature. And kids are not expected to do an inter-disciplinary research project working with faculty from Poli Sci, History and Econ to flesh out a novel understanding of Tolstoy’s world view-- which is what a college lit class might expect. (Full disclaimer- I LOVED the Russian Lit seminar I took in college, but was shocked that reading the actual works-- thousands of pages-- was just the beginning.)
So even if the actual books are different, the approach (which is the AP template) is going to be pretty much the same. Hence- repeating a class.
You assume correctly. There is no prescribed reading list. The commonality is the study of literary analysis, character development etc.
Similarly, though, 9th grade English will have different books depending on the school, but it’s still generally taken only once
Gotcha. I see. At the same time, my D22 had four different literature courses across her junior and senior years --a different one each semester. All were open to both juniors and seniors. Hopefully none taught only formulaic writing though I imagine the teachers did think about the fact that some students would want to take the AP and needed to know the expected format. Anyway, I don’t think that the one that she took spring of her senior year was meaningfully different in depth or rigor than the one that she took in the fall of her junior year given that they were all open to both grades. At least D24 had a creative writing class in high school as well as one interdisciplinary history and literature course her junior year, which I think was a welcome change of pace
@sybbie719 - His senior year English will be AP Research combined with APLit as a year-long course taught by the English department. I would have been fine with him taking the DE class, and wanted him to do so, but the school is taking a fairly hard line on this one because it’s how they’ve built their English program for their most advanced students.
@MYOS1634 - I’m not sure I understand. Do you mean stretching by taking things he’s not interested in? Or that the psychology (another social science, AP level had a conflict) and forensics are too soft, for lack of a better word?
Options that actually fit in the schedule given he didn’t want to jettison AP Stats or AP Micro and he’s required to do a capstone (fulfilled by AP Research) were pretty limited and included things like intro to woodworking or intro to drawing. I guess that could demonstrate broadening his horizons, but in our opinion, and knowing our kid, that plan might have backfired in spectacular fashion. He could ditch the AP Research and take the regular capstone project sequence, but the issue there is that would actually be the less rigorous track at this school. And yes, he could have opted to take BC Calc in the fall and multivariable in the spring, and taken on AP Chem or one of the physics APs each semester, but we also believe this is his journey, and he’s not a STEM kid, and he has to make the decisions (within reason) around this, and ultimately live with the consequences if he doesn’t get in to some of the ultra-reach schools on his list (sorry for the run-on). He’ll be OK because he’s OK with his safeties and we know there’s a lot more to him than a transcript (or two). On a personal level, I’d rather see him happy and energized by school and what he’s learning than drained because he absolutely hates the classes he’s taking and still has to manage the rest of his life (sports, a lengthy solo driving commute, and maintaining a social life).
The way I see this, and I think the way the guidance office and the English department see this, is that he would end up with solid rigor in classes he’s interested in and a repeated class on the transcript, or solid rigor for three years of high school and then a senior year transcript that looks less rigorous in comparison because he’s not going to go all in on STEM classes. I think it’s a tough balance between maintaining rigor and taking classes you’re actually interested in and not necessarily taking a class because it presents a certain look.
So by way of an update, we’re obviously going to roll the dice. The GC has prepared a letter/explanation for how they’ve structured their program and why, as well as that it’s not an uncommon situation for them when they have senior transfers who are more advanced in the course progression. We’ll just have to see, especially since I don’t doubt that @MYOS1634 may be right that a heavier or more out-of-the-box course load senior year would “look better”. From S25’s perspective, he feels it’s plenty heavy with everything else he’s got to manage. The GC has gone above and beyond anything we’ve experienced from a counselor over the past few years and has demonstrated that she’s invested in the process with him, so we’re going to take a leap of faith.
Same question once again; if he took AP Lit sophomore year why is he taking it again senior year. You cannot get credit for the same course twice and he would be missing a senior English class
He is taking it again because his new school is not offering him another option for English. In case it wasn’t clear early on, he is a senior transfer student.
Speaking as a school counselor, this does not put your son in a great position. If this was his schedule at my school he would not be on track to graduate with his class because he cannot get credit for the same course twice and he is not fulfilling the 4 years of English that almost every college is going to ask for.
It will definitely be a flag with admissions officers.
Push back and make them fix it. Escalate it to the superintendent if you must ( but first go through your internal channels. Put everything in writing.
It is not in your son’s best interest to retake a course he already has credit for. If he did not get an A the first time it looks like grade grubbing and fear of stretching himself academically.
Is the new school using Block Scheduling?
I didn’t mean that he should take AP Chem (which is hard core STEM) nor Calc Bc but rather that he should increase rigor in social science/history etc. With another AP history, Art history, Psych, etc. And APES is linked to science but also news&social change so it might have appealed to him. I’m very much in favor of playing to your strengths. But it sounds like that’s not a choice at the new school.
I guess he’ll be taking AP Lit for the readings in the Fall and not take the exam, then AP Research in the spring, then trust the GC will make it clear in the letter of recommendation that it was both unavoidable and the highest rigor available to him.
@MYOS1634 - got it, thank you! It’s the other way around. AP Research in the fall and it segues into AP Lit. He is ineligible to sit for the exam. And yes, it is block scheduling, I guess? A semester based schedule, so all classes, with a few AP exceptions, run for one semester. Unfortunately, his two other top choices for other classes on the schedule didn’t work out. Philosophy had a conflict with AP Micro, I think, and they are not offering the comparative religions class he wanted due to low interest… which was really a bummer and how he landed on psych and forensics.
@sybbie719 Thanks, I appreciate the concern, and I’ll keep working with his GC.
So if he takes AP research in the fall, then drops AP English literature and takes an English course at a local college, what happens?
How odd. I thought you meant that the two classes were team-taught, simultaneously, in a way that made it essential to be in both to participate fully. The fact that this isn’t the case makes it even sillier to repeat the class.
These seem like ridiculous contortions to go through, for the sake of using AP Research as a capstone class when he can’t even take the AP exam. If they won’t let him combine Research with a DE class he hasn’t already taken, then I’d ditch Research, go with the “accelerated” capstone, and have the guidance counselor explain that he took the most rigorous class available to him, since they’re the ones making the Research option a non-starter for him. I can’t see any legitimate, functional reason that Research has to funnel into Lit when they are completely separate courses and he has already taken Lit. It’s very weird that they’re trying to insist on this!
Is DE Economics available, so that he could take Philosophy (this is usually considered high rigor and for college admissions is considered Humanities/English)?
Yeah my guess is they need to give kids the entire year to do the research project so they actually do part of Research in Lit. AP Research isn’t supposed to be taught in a semester. Even our school that has block scheduling has AP Sem and AP Research as every other day courses to make sure kids have time to complete all parts of their research study. To be clear, he can’t take the AP Lit exam, but he can do the AP Research project which is a portfolio submission and in class presentation, not an exam.