Seriously, How Much Did You Learn in College?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I have a different take on this story. And for people who have read a few of the posts I have written on the subject of assessing the students after middle school, it will not come a surprise. </p>

<p>Here’s what is proposed:</p>

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<p>It is NOT a bad idea, except that it targets the wrong market. This is the type of initiative that should be applied and extended to the previous sector, namely the secondary education. As we have it now, we do have the “not” beloved SAT, which is mostly misunderstood and overly criticized. The biggest problem with the SAT is that it is … not comprehensive enough and that is has been relegated to an “out of school” administration. On the other hand, we have an out-of-control boondoggle in the form of the AP that monopolizes much attention and robs students from at least two weeks of precious education time. Precious when considering how short the working hours and days already are in our typical public high schools. </p>

<p>Were I in charge --slim chance for that to happen-- I would flip-flop the SAT and AP, and relegate the AP exams to multiple Saturdays as the SAT is now offered. In other words, take those crappy tests when you want, on your time, and do not let interfere in regular classroom time. Now that we have more time available, it could be filled with an extended SAT type of test to be taken at most TWICE. Once in the Spring of the Junior year, and once more if needed in the Fall of the Senior year. This test would be extended to cover the usual subjects of the SAT Subject Tests and take about four days to be completed. </p>

<p>College admissions could focus on two elements: the PSAT in the junior year, and the following real and extended SAT in the following Spring. The chance to repeat in October will be the only second chance before sending in college applications. The price to pay? A more serious preparation! Will the gamesmanship end? No, there will plenty of Saturdays for the AP trophy hunters to keep busy! </p>

<p>Could something be gained from a TRUE national test as an expanded SAT? Plenty, and for started what could be measured is the basic ability of read, write, and think, as well as cover subjects that are extremely poorly presented in our typical high schools in a model that requires simplistic rote memorization. Right now, high schools offer a hodgepodge of “creative” subjects and bury the skills that elevate students above illiteracy in a sea of nothingness. Students cannot count, spell, or write a cogent sentence, and this because this is no longer expected from them, and because our teachers do not possess the ability to present or demand such knowledge. </p>

<p>The idea has merit; it simply missed the right target where the deeper problems exist.</p>

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<p>Undergrad English major here. </p>

<p>I learned a LOT in college but the course that had the most impact on my adult life was “Music 101.” It was a survey class in classical music with required hours each week in the music listening room where I sat on a bleacher and followed along with the score as I listened to the pieces we were studying that week being piped in. It gave me a lifelong love of and appreciation for classical music, including opera, which enhances my life to this day. The pieces I became familiar with that semester are still favorites of mine. Listening to “Don Giovanni” inspired me to take up the study of Italian the following semester.</p>

<p>Hard to imagine a valid test that would reflect that.</p>

<p>My H is a finance guy, but he feels that writing well is a major indicator of good analytic thinking, and he requires a significant writing sample from anyone he is considering hiring. If the writing sample is not up to his expectations, the candidate is ruled out, no matter what else is on the resume or happens in the interview. He feels strongly that knowing something is not enough – you need to be able to analyze material and capably express thoughts on the subject. He also expects perfect grammar and spelling – wonders how anyone who is not careful with those details would produce quality work. </p>

<p>We edit each other’s writing at times, and I respect his input. (He was, of all things, a Geography major as an undergrad!)</p>

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<p>It requires students to write lengthy essays to test their scientific and quantitative reasoning, critical reading comprehension, problem-solving skills, and writing ability.</p>

<p>Just thinking, holy crap, more holistic?</p>

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<p>I majored in Nursing. I learned a lot.</p>

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<p>Xiggi, I wonder if you can teach kids to think when the proof is in a formulaic output. Thesis statements, positions, proofs, use of quotes and footnotes. Valid but narrow. IME, I don’t see many kids overwhelmed by creative classes at the cost of cores. But I do see plenty who can’t stand back and assess. I do blame that on formula. Looking back, the best class I had in high school was about open discussion, opinion and defense/argument. The guy was also a track coach at the local college.</p>

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<p>I learned quite a bit in college.</p>

<p>Most importantly that sometimes good enough would have to do. I became proficient in cramming for finals when they were all scheduled within hours of one another, how to quickly write a decent paper or summary, how to prioritize what needed to be done. I learned that I could let some things go and not others. I learned how to deal with difficult professors and inappropriate professors. I learned how to state my case and talk in front of large groups of people. </p>

<p>I don’t think you need a test after college.</p>

<p>What I have seen more of is employers testing applicants on their knowledge base. My son had to take on line tests at one programming job that was actually divided into a number of interviews with tests at each stage.</p>

<p>He was asked very specific job related questions at another job interview. How would you…</p>

<p>Agree with others more testing is a scam meant to steal your money. Kind of like SAT II’s and AP tests on the same subject. </p>

<p>I hope no one buys into this.</p>

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<p>I was a CS major and I learned nothing applicable to my career (which is in IT). No one was interested in hiring me to program Modula-2, Ada or Lisp. </p>

<p>Most of the other knowledge I could have acquired on my own, although somethings like Blake’s “Jerusalem” or “Finnegan’s Wake” I wouldn’t have finished if I wasnt in a class on them. </p>

<p>However my student job was enormously applicable. If that job was decoupled from the school, it would have saved me a lot of time and money.</p>

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<p>I agree with the way you are thinking about it, Xiggi. Again, however, who is going to assess these tests and how? Whenever you have these mass testings, they eventually boil down to a formula. </p>

<p>Some get it, some don’t. It’s not always the brightest or hardest working, either. Past a certain point, as an employer, give me the hard working and ones who can work smart. I can show them the rest.</p>

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<p>Recently I saw a job ad for readers for the SAT essays. The hourly rate was quoted as up to $12 an hour depending on productivity - sorry I can’t find the exact link today. So one question that has to be resolved is how the companies selling these exams will be able to guarantee the quality of the exam scorers for those parts that are not multiple choice.</p>

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<p>I, on the other hand, did get hired to program in LISP. So I’m glad I learned it in college. Most of my CS courses have been immensely useful to me.</p>

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<p>Happymom, I almost mentioned that DH had been part of a related test project for GREs. The scoring sync between readers (professors) was high. But as I recall, they were also testing machine reads against the human.</p>

<p>And for posters who distrust holistic, I just don’t see how they’d be happy with any of this.</p>

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<p>Oh the scoring sync is pretty good - ETS does extensive training for it. However each reader spends very little time with each essay - bare minutes at the most. Scoring real essays takes time and thought, and I just don’t see that being allowed for (or paid for) in a mass-testing situation. </p>

<p>Pearson is working on machine scoring for essays for its English proficiency exams. So yes that is definitely likely to be suggested for scoring the next generation of college entrance/exit exams.</p>

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<p>Yes, bare minutes. If you can’t do x in an hour, you can’t last. The initial $ per hour was far higher, then dropped to $12. (He was one of the profs.)</p>

<p>But you know how long an undergrad college app gets?</p>

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<p>To practice law, we had to take a week of tests in HI and CA each. If you didn’t pass, your job options were more limited than if you did. Many in CA did NOT pass the first time (> 50%), but our law school was proud that most of its grads passed the first time (I think we had the highest pass rate in the state–about 90+%). In HI, one year, they had a 100% pass rate; most of the other years, the pass rate is 80-90+% in HI.</p>

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<p>Reminds me of the “Five Minute University” skit by Father Guido Sarducci (comedian - well worth five minutes’ time on YouTube).</p>

<p>I don’t like the idea of any scores being sent to potential employers. I’ve seen kids with mediocre grades work hard, while some students with good grades get lazy on the job. And vice versa - there are too many variables that contribute to work performance, and standardized test scores is not one of them in my opinion. Job “fit” is important, as are personal factors that can carry over and affect one’s productivity at work. It’s great to test how students think critically and reason, but the idea of providing these results to employers bothers me. I don’t even like seeing GPAs on resumes because I honestly don’t care (though I can see how it might be considered important in certain fields). </p>

<p>I look for other aspects in an application and interview. I don’t just look for the right answer - I determine whether I believe what they’re telling me, and what their real values are based on presentation, past experiences, and what they don’t say. Mediocre students can excel at the right jobs for them, and do poorly at jobs that are a poor match of skill and interest regardless of GPA. Then you have students who do well at seemingly everything. </p>

<p>Even if this testing is based on essay writing and not multiple choice, colleges will begin teaching to “ace the test” rather than teaching to produce educated, skilled workers. Not all professions require critical writing abilities. Some require creativity and artistic taste. Some require physical strength and stamina. Others rely on people skills. And while critical thinking and reasoning may underlie many of these skills, writing essays that are not specific to the field one will work in will not provide an accurate picture of their capabilities and accomplishments come graduation.</p>