Shame On You, State Schools!!!

Paying for College
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<p>It’s fair enough to disagree on ideas … however misrepresenting the other sides views is at best being disingenuous … and frankly, I feel your responses have been pretty snarky.</p>

<p>What I said pretty clearly was that I believe top students in a state should be able to go to a state flagship university and not only whatever is geographically close. Many states have 1 flagship state U, many have a couple, a few have a lot. </p>

<p>I never said there is only one good school in a state or that everyone should be able to go anywhere … what I believe is that if a state has tiering in their schools that the top students should be able to afford to attend the top tier.</p>

<p>Agree or disagree I don’t care … but please do not misrepresent or belittle my beliefs … I did neither to yours.</p>

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what I believe is that if a state has tiering in their schools that the top students should be able to afford to attend the top tier.
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<p>Why? Do you think that top K-12 students should be funded to attend the best K-12 school district in the state? If not, why not? </p>

<p>Sure, it would be nice if the best students are all properly funded to go to the best school a state has to offer, but that’s not likely ever going to happen. It’s simply not fair for those “in the middle” who don’t qualify for the aid, and yet can’t pay for their own kids to go away to school. </p>

<p>I see that all the time in Calif which provides very good aid to its low income students. Those who earn beyond Cal Grants (which doesn’t consider number of students in college), can find themselves with 2-3 kids in college and only Stafford loans - so their kids commute. Are these folks tax-dollars supposed to pay for lower income kids’ R&B?</p>

<p>That said, the high achieving low income kids that you’re concerned about do have options. They’re likely going to get accepted to the schools that give the best aid, or they’ll qualify for merit scholarships that supplement their fed/state aid. </p>

<p>What I’ve seen on this forum is that the kids with middle incomes and “just good” stats having no options but to commute to a CC then local state school. Their parents have EFCs that are just beyond Pell, and those are incomes that usually don’t have an extra $500+ a month to put towards their $6k+ EFC. So, those kids have uncovered EFCs, their only option often is to commute to a local CC and state school and pay for it with a student loan and summer/school year job.</p>

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<p>Well, I think a lot of this conversation can be boiled down to the fact that generalizing state to state does not work.</p>

<p>There are those of us who live in states with one flagship, high tuition, low aid models, and we see that this is really handicapping our low income students. Some of us, who live in these states, would really like to see this change.</p>

<p>Others live in more manageable states, but will likely face some of these issues as legislatures continue to defund, and tuitions keep going up and up, and pricing out the low income kids.</p>

<p>No matter what we say, we are discussing state schools, high pensions, mis managed monies, and a generation who is being left with less and less options. None of us are from a generation that literally could not fund their own education at an instate school without borrowing away their future. And the most badly effected kids in these particular states are in situations where they can’t, literally cannot, afford the flagship.</p>

<p>They are also the least likely to have good advice or even to understand the options at OOS and private for those who test well and get high GPAs. It’s a trap for the impoverished in our states, and this is not all right with some of us, even for those of us who are full pay, who see it as the MISSION of state universities to educate the best students in the state, regardless of parental income.</p>

<p>Sadly, some of us see missions in our flagships which do not exist. Oddly, this is happening in some of the most allegedly liberal states in the country. It seems at odds with what we “say,” compared to what we “do.”</p>

<p>JMO</p>

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<p>Agree. Those with high tuition state schools should make their schools more affordable to low and middle income students.</p>

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<p>So basically, everyone wants a good education, education costs money, universities are thought to offer a better education than community colleges, some universities cost more than others, some universities are deemed better than others, some want to go away for better educational opportunities, some have to stay close to home due to limited funds/stats, and some are stuck not being able to afford any university if one isn’t close enough to drive to one or if they can’t get any non-financial aid. </p>

<p>From this, I can gather that the main issues here are whether or not a student goes away and what kind of public college they attend. </p>

<p>I think it’s safe to say that practically everyone can afford to go to a community college. If you don’t qualify for any financial aid, then either paying or borrowing 3k(plus or minus some)/yr isn’t too difficult to do; if you do qualify for financial aid, that 3k/yr becomes even easier to manage. (being very broad here, and also assuming they only go for 2 years) </p>

<p>I think it starts getting tricky when you want to attend a 4-year accredited university. The cheapest tuition for a traditional course load of 32 credits/yr from a commuting university in my area is about 11k, and the most expensive (that I know of) is breaking 13k. This is when the very poor start to suffer, because as m2ck mentioned before, EFC 0 students have about 11k of federal help for school, half of that being loans. So not only are they going to barely meet the funding for tuition, but they’re putting themselves in debt and probably still short for some schools’ tuition and for books, transportation, food, etc. </p>

<p>If you add about 7-10k for going away, this is where it becomes really hard. </p>

<p>While I do wish that everyone could be able to attend universities and be exposed to the enriching research and academic environments, it’s just not always possible or not very prudent for some people. This is why, as we all agree on, universities should lower their tuition. It’s a shame that university-capable students aren’t going because they’re afraid of drowning in debt, or because their family can’t even take on debt to help them. </p>

<p>I think the government should somehow improve the community college system so that it’s not as inferior and weak compared to the universities. Or, as someone already mentioned, they should at least make transferring to a university much easier. </p>

<p>Just some of my $.02.</p>

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<p>My son applied to 15 schools, 4 are part of the SUNY system. With the exception of Buffalo, which gave him a considerable scholarship and FA package, the other 3 SUNYs would cost us more than any of the other privates. We can’t even consider them. Our cost to send him to SUNY Bing, with a pricetag of about $24K would be about $18K. Our cost to send him to Carnegie Mellon, with a pricetag of about $62K would be about $14K.</p>

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<p>Around here we have a really excellent community college system. I don’t believe that the students are getting any bit of an inferior education going there. There is a glut of PhDs around here, highly educated area. So, any kid at any of the CCs is going to be well prepared. I’m a huge fan of CCs, in fact.</p>

<p>But, in some states, mine, for example, even if you go to the CC for your gen eds and even though there are some really great articulation agreements, the kids CANNOT AFFORD to finish at the four years. There is something so fundamentally wrong with this, I can’t begin to find a way to find it useful.</p>

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<p>It is the shame of the SUNYs that they do not meet full need and leave significant gaps even for low income students. </p>

<p>You did well with CMU, keepingitlight. Congrats to your son.</p>

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<p>^^Thanks CPT! It’s just weird how it all shakes out in the end. I spent alot of time during his junior year extolling the virtues of state schools…assuring him that SUNYS are wonderful schools, and in some cases better than alot of the privates. (Mind you, I had it in my head that our state schools would be our financial safety “just in case” schools…and I wanted him to be OK with that) And yet when the packages came in, those were the most $$.</p>

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<p>Cpt – is this true, that SUNYs gap for low income? Or do you mean gap, but only with respect to room and board? Because I would have thought the low income would have TAP and Pell grants, paying for all their tuition.</p>

<p>ETA – between the entire NYC area, Buffalo and Albany, I think the vast majority of NY students have commuting access to a good SUNY.</p>

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<p>They gap. Yes, for room and board. The tuition is low enough that TAP, PELL and the Staffords can pretty much cover the commuting options. But when you are looking at the 4 cornerstone unis for room and board, that’s not the case any more Just do their NPCs and stick in some income levels and you will see that they gap.</p>

<p>There many SUNY college and community college options for commuters, and that is preferable. But for those looking at options to go away to school and with the stats that they are selective college material which I am guessing Keepingitlight’s son is, the aid is not good, and Binghamton and Geneseo, the two schools with the highest stats in terms of students do not give much merit at all.</p>

<p>Maybe the model is the best that can be done. Availability for commuters at low cost and for those who can afford it, sleep away options that are not too pricey. Where we lose in this state are those who have the high stats whether they are our instaters or our out of staters. There is the Cornell option, of course, very limited. And if Buff or Bing became popular venues, then the mainstream of kids, the upper middle income crowd with midrange states would not have the SUNY options that they do. </p>

<p>I don’t know. What do you think? I love the way CA and VA have the state options as some of the best the state has to offer that rival many privates and attract OOSers, but then you lose the seats for instaters. Also, my head is reeling right now as to how pricey the VA schools have become. It’s like a blinked,and they jacked up the prices. They were such a bargain 15 years ago relative to other like schools. Now they are not even priced that well for in staters.</p>

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<p>Another thing that states could do is to put in good honors programs at their regional univs so that “better students” who are attending will have “better options”.</p>

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<p>Mom2, our local CC has stepped up to the plate and started its own Honors program. I think this is a great idea, for those kids who say, I worked hard, and now I have to go to CC with kids who did not. The Honors program has the usual, special classes, also has a study abroad component.</p>

<p>Cpt, I do think NY offers a “commutable” option for a large % of kids. It may not be the best school, but likely a good school (between Albany, Buffalo, various CUNY programs).</p>

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<p>Hmm… Honors programs kind of rub me the wrong way. </p>

<p>I personally declined my university’s honors program equivalent because I’m double-majoring, but I have friends that are in it. They take different, “special” classes that, from what they say, just entails showing up and filling out journals about what you think and what you learned. Though that can also be intellectually-stimulating, does a 4.0 in that really equal a 4.0 in a class where someone had to take notes in lecture, take quizzes, take tests, and really focus on mastering material instead of merely talking about it? </p>

<p>I dunno. It probably depends on the college, but I feel that honors programs can isolate students into thinking they’re better than others. My high school had a similar type of program where kids were actually in a different school for half the day, and I noticed much arrogance from them as well. </p>

<p>If there’s a true honors program that doesn’t just build up people’s egos and give them “special” classes that are easier than “regular” classes, then I’d be for it.</p>

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<p>Wow, I never thought Honors class were what you described. I actually assumed they were harder.</p>

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<p>I think they’re supposed to be in that you have to do a lot of community service, write a thesis, and maybe more at other schools. </p>

<p>At mine, they just have to take 4 special classes throughout their 4 years that’s thought-based and more innovative. You also do community service and do your own research and write a senior thesis. It doesn’t seem so bad, but I wonder if other schools make you take more special classes? </p>

<p>(For the record, I only declined because both of my majors require a thesis and I’m planning on studying abroad since one of my majors is French. Otherwise, I probably would’ve done it, but I’d probably still feel that it wasn’t a big deal)</p>