She has a plan, does it make sense?

Parent Cafe
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<p>For attorneys interested in civil rights, OCR is a much more rewarding place to work than the Civil Rights Division of DOJ. OCR attorneys are involved in real cases on a daily basis, and do legal research. No litigation. DOJ civil rights attorneys don’t seem to do much of anything except in the area of disability, and they are soooooo slow in dealing with the complaints they receive. Well actually they do have an active role in cutting back civil rights laws, but that’s another story.</p>

<p>We seem to have wandered off from the OP initial post. </p>

<p>Bottom line, if the person wants to get into the FBI they should get some kind of real law enforcement experience first.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone who responded; D has been to the Academy at Quantico - spent an entire day there as guest of one of my business contacts. Law enforcement experience is always viewed favorably in the application, but not necessary, according to what they told her. </p>

<p>From what she related back to me, minimum age is 27 to apply; process is highly selective and takes a while; applicants needs work experience UNLESS they have a terminal or professional degree. Oh, and there was a LOT of discussion about having a clean credit history, in addition to the obvious (clean background, etc.). </p>

<p>Of course, 27 is 6 years away and the requirements could change considerably in that time. But, she wants to investigate art crimes, and so she thinks this is the best - and most interesting - strategy.</p>

<p>She has attended a few career workshops hosted by law enforcement personnel, and isn’t interested in general local or state law enforcement - for some reason, it turns her off. I don’t know how she figures an FBI career into interest range, but, she left Quantico will an extreme level of interest and a positive perception of the day to day work of an agent. I have no idea why there would be a difference.</p>

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<p>Ophiolite, thanks for that. It looks like the GRE is the easier of the two; she said tonight that she wants to do Kaplan for the LSAT, since the most logical test date is September 30.</p>

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<p>LTS, Is there a specific program at UofC that combines an art history MA with a law degree? Or is she just choosing one from each list to pursue simultaneously. </p>

<p>I think that art and law are a wonderful and lucrative combination and can think of dozens of applications in the event that the FBI/art crimes idea pales over the years. </p>

<p>Re US government funding higher education: I’ve had several young friends in the foreign service (mostly State, but also Commerce) who have taken MBA’s while in the employ of Uncle Sam. I don’t know the exact details of the funding but my understanding is that they were given ample financial support.</p>

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<p>latetoschool, I have nothing to add here in terms of advice, but your D sounds like one very together and fascinating young woman! Congratulations! :)</p>

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<p>latetoschool
D took the computer based GRE with only a review book prep and had no difficulty.She was worried about the math as she had not taken any math in 4 years of college(had tested out due to AP score).
I find the combo of law enforcement and art theft fascinating.Is there enough work to specialize in that field at the FBI or does she need to be more well rounded and willing to work in other areas as well?</p>

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<p>Momrath - I either had the school wrong or she did or I wasn’t listening when she first told me - it’s not UofC at all; turns out it’s a joint program at University of Pittsburgh. She made me sit still while she showed me every single item for both programs on their website last night, and, I was underwhelmed, but I cannot put my finger on why. I encouraged her to go for it but at the same time suggested she look for similar opportunities in other schools. She told me that’s hard to do - she has been using gradschools.com and she said basically she is looking up one school at a time because she cannot find a search engine that accepts the terms and spits out a list of schools. </p>

<p>It’s very tempting for me to start drilling around and looking for schools for her, but, I think it’s smarter and better that I sit on my hands and leave this up to her. Doing nothing is very very hard though. </p>

<p>Cathymee, thanks for that, re the amount of work, I have no idea at all. I simply don’t know anything about art, period. </p>

<p>Momof2inca, thanks for that, but sometimes I think she has taken leave of her senses lol :)</p>

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<p>I know nothing about the specific program at UChicago, but here’s my 2 cents.</p>

<p>First, you can probably get a master’s degree in art history and a J.D. at a number of top law schools. There’s no reason for her to limit herself to UChicago just because it lists a specific program. </p>

<p>Second, as far as I know, the only law schools that do NOT offer merit money are “the trinity”–Yale, Harvard, Stanford. UChicago definitely DOES, but only to a small # of students. </p>

<p>Third, the best law schools have loan forgiveness programs. If you earn below X dollars, you don’t have to repay the loan. Above Y, you do. Between x and Y you pay based on a sliding scale. So, it’s USUALLY more important to find a good loan forgiveness program than merit $ if you are SURE you want to go into public service. </p>

<p>Fourth, I may well be out of date, because the incident occurred a long time ago, but FWIW…The FBI hires lots of attorneys, but they are NOT the attorneys who actually try art fraud cases. That’s usually done by the offices of the United States Attorney (federal prosecutor) in various cities. So, while getting a law degree can definitely help get you into the FBI, there’s no reason why you need to be an attorney to be an art expert for the FBI. I knew someone who was an assistant US attorney who prosecuted a ring of international art smugglers of stolen art. In doing so, he worked with the FBI’s art expert. At that time, the FBI had one such agent. Now, perhaps it will have more, but I suspect it’s still a pretty limited number.( The link llisted below indicates there are now 8 agents doing this work.) And, I may be wrong, but I’d suspect that if that’s your goal, it’s probable that the person with the greatest expertise in art and counterfeiting techiques will get the job, not the person with a law degree. </p>

<p>If I were you, I’d urge your D to contact the FBI, explain her interest and ask advice before embarking on this adventure. A quick google got this site. Why not contact one of the agents in the group? <a href=“http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/arttheft/arttheft.htm[/url]”>http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/arttheft/arttheft.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>P.S. I noted your switch to UPitt, made while I was typing away. I know that UChicago has loan forgiveness. I don’t know about Pitt.</p>

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<p>Jonri, thanks for that. She has a mentor at Quantico - he is a unit chief, career agent, worked on reconstructing the shredded Enron documents among other things. She has been in discussion with him for about two years now, however, he is NOT involved in any recruiting, so, I have no idea how accurate is his information or guidance. She was, however, fascinated by some of the things he showed her at Quantico. She also has access to these people through her college; she has been looking at the CIA somewhat seriously too but is not as interested in that agency.</p>

<p>But in any case I’m going to send her the link you provided in email - I would suspect that the agency is so huge and so parochialized that her mentor probably doesn’t really know much about what degrees and skill sets are desired at point of recruiting, although being at Quantico he would surely understand the training. </p>

<p>Last night she explained everything to me as she showed me the website; it all made sense after she went through it for about an hour, but now in the light of day I cannot remember how the law degree has anything to do with anything else. I remember asking her specifically and she said something about contractural issues? Fraud in collections negotiation? Financial fraud? I just cannot remember. </p>

<p>But in any case I’m curious about something - loan forgiveness meaning - undergrad debt? She won’t have any for undergrad, but, did you mean loan forgiveness of law school debt? Or loan forgiveness in exchange for public service?</p>

<p>Last, do you know if there a website she can go to that will let her put in criteria and run searches? I don’t know what’s going on with guidance at college but they don’t seem to be helping her very much, or perhaps she does not understand how to leverage the resource.</p>

<p>Thanks again for this information, I appreciate very much your taking the time to locate it.</p>

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<p>I meant law school debt. The point is that if you go to a law school with a good loan forgiveness program, you can go work in public interest without having to repay your loans. Here’s a brief description from Harvard Law’s website–read the second paragraph carefully</p>

<p>"Harvard Law School Grant and Loan assistance is awarded on the basis of demonstrated financial need. The School does not award “merit” or “full-ride” scholarships (which typically are not need-based) because these would necessarily reduce the resources available for need-based aid and significantly increase the debt burden of every financially needy student. For students whose demonstrated financial need does not reach the threshold for Law School Grant eligibility, Federal Direct Loans and private supplemental loans are available to meet education expenses. For international students, Harvard Law School Loans are offered instead of Federal Direct Loans.</p>

<p>Loan repayment statistics show that graduates working in private sector jobs (where the average starting salary for Harvard Law School graduates is $125,000) are comfortably able to repay even a significant education debt, and that the percentage of income devoted to loan repayment declines over time as annual income increases. However, for graduates in relatively low-paying jobs, an investment in law school education can turn into an unmanageable repayment burden. For this reason, the Low Income Protection Plan (LIPP) extends potential financial assistance from the Law School for many years beyond graduation. LIPP is an income-contingent loan repayment assistance program for graduates in public service or law-related private sector jobs – in other words, LIPP helps eligible graduates repay their loans. Unlike public interest scholarships, LIPP requires no “up front” commitment to public service work. Any Harvard Law School JD program graduate working in a qualifying job at an eligible income can receive LIPP assistance at any time during the repayment term of their education loans."</p>

<p>Loan forgiveness programs vary ENORMOUSLY among law schools. My point is that she should check on the existence or non-existence of such programs in choosing a law school, if law school is the route she wants to take. </p>

<p>I don’t know what her search criteria are or of a search engine which will help. For law school though, the best place to start is usually : </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.lsac.org/[/url]”>http://www.lsac.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Jonri, thanks for this, this information helps tremendously and I really appreciate it. I sent her the lasc link too - and I am positive she has absolutely no idea about the financial side of the issue.</p>

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<p>The FBI will hire people without law enforcement experience if it is a skill position. The son of a friend was hired as an agent to work in computer crimes. Went to the Academy, the whole nine yards.</p>

<p>Lasted less than 6 months…said that the job was deathly bureaucratic and TERRIBLY slow. He didn’t fit in (think Mulder).</p>

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<p>LTS, the Pittsburgh/CMU program does sound interesting. It’s the first time I’d heard of the masters of arts management and I’m going to suggest that my son look into it. Gradschools.com is also a good tip. </p>

<p>My son is completely torn between museum work (i.e., getting an advanced in arts history) and architecture. He’d like to find a similar program that would allow him to do both simultaneously.</p>

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<p>She would probably quickly get a hold on the financial issues if you tell her she has to pay. Are you doing her a favor paying for a program she wants based on under a dozen jobs in the Country? Everyone, as usual, has been overly polite on this thread. What I suspect most are thinking is that she’s a college grad and it’s time she gets a grip on non mommy reality.</p>

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<p>Suze, what I suspect is that “most” on this thread are very busy with their own families, interests, happiness and productivity and are not actually kept awake at night thinking about which member of the family will pay for this young lady’s post-grad education.</p>

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<p>Momrath, my D is in a similar quandry - she DOESN’T want to get sidelined into museum work, but, believes that she needs to learn a lot about the business side of art in order to become something of an expert investigator or profiler. She wants the capacity of an MBA, but 100% focused on art, with law, and heavy in economics and statistics, but doesn’t actually want an MBA. </p>

<p>She told me there is also a similar program at Carnegie Mellon, and, Sotherby’s (sp??) has something too - perhaps one of them has something jointly with architecture?</p>

<p>Ellemenope, I could see boredom as a real possibility with my D, too.</p>

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<p>Just suggesting it might be a good idea to encourage a college grad to figure out her own financial (and life) realities. And so to answer your original question, the plan certainly sounds like fun if one can be indulged but it doesn’t appear to be a pragmatic approach. I see it as a trust fund approach. I have several friends who will work in low paying positions at Sothebys/Christies and still be able to live on Park Avenue. Most people going to law school and taking the big loans will have to work at high salary jobs at least for awhile unless you’re like the JFK juniors who got to go straight into public service . So having followed your posts where you talk about going back to school yourself, I assume you’re not rich. Going to a school that mixes the very rich with the upper middle, middle, lower middle and the poor, I’ve learned that I can have the same great education as the rich kids, but my options will never be what their’s are. It sounds to me like you’re treating your daughter as a kid without a care–the money will be there to pay for any education and if the end result is low paying you can deal with it. Can she?</p>

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<p>Suze, you make extremely unfortunate assumptions, but in any case, the financial side of it - especially who pays - is not eligible for discussion here - it costs whatever it costs. My role is to respond to assistance as requested, and to provide the operational support for the goal as it was expressed to me. The cool thing about money is that it’s one of the easiest things to come by - there’s plenty of it, and one can always make more. Time, however, is entirely differently problematic. </p>

<p>As to the practical side, that’s not my call, and I’m not even slightly interested in how many jobs there might be in the country or globally. If I wanted to consider it though, the issue with crime is that the economic drivers change as the law and penalty side changes. I don’t know anything about art, but I can idly speculate that at least as it relates to terrorist financing, as it becomes harder for terrorists to leverage the legitimate banking system, they are having to find new ways to clean funds, meaning finding larger ticket items to leverage. There is already some impact on commercial real estate, the gaming industry, and jewelry - conflict diamonds and the changes in the Kimberly Process are strong indicators. So I can easily see that even just in this narrow scope the requirement for specialists in art crime can potentially increase in coming years. </p>

<p>But even if there were no such indicators - I am not going to view her college education through the lens of “what are the job prospects”. What I do for a living didn’t exist 20 years ago, and, I could never have pointed to a entry on a list of careers or even broad disciplines and said “I want to do THAT”. Actually, it’s not on any list even today. Looking broader, globally, there are many, many new and emerging fields, and mixes of educational disciplines that didn’t exist even as recently as five years ago. Finally, there is a huge difference between reacting to the job market in terms of what is considered to be “available”, and the mindsit that one may be the agent of change and leadership in new fields - I view the world globally, not domestically. </p>

<p>My decision as parent is to support whatever it is she wants to do - that’s entirely my call, and I get to make it. If she wants to study ant farms or the chemical structure of jello or how to make mud pies or the formation of clouds or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - whatever - great. It’s HER choice, her life, her career, and I WILL provide the support as she requests it, and seek out whatever information may be available that supports her line of inquiry.</p>

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<p>LTS, I think the program that your daughter is looking at is extremely pragmatic. It will qualify her for a wide range of careers, many of which are relatively well paid.</p>

<p>The part that’s less practical is the concept of paying back a massive loan while working for the US Government. Civil service has a lot of positives, but high income isn’t one. I suspect, however, that with degrees in law and arts management under her belt, she’ll be able to figure out her personal finances. :)</p>

<p>Museum work has changed a lot in the past 10 years. Many top positions that used to go to art history PhD’s are now held by a diverse and charismatic group of “art experts” with degrees in architecture, studio art, business. The directors are really more like corporate CEO’s who oversee multifaceted bureaucratic organizations with infinite budgetary complexity. (There is never enough money!) </p>

<p>Good luck to your daughter and let us know how it goes.</p>

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<p>LTS: Great post. Your mention of terrorists is interesting. I know or know of many NYC cops who earned MBAs in finance while putting in their 20 years on the job. The opportunities for retired NYC detectives who hold finance MBAs are fantastic. Tracking money laundering by terrorists requires both street smarts & financial acumen. I know beans about art crime, but it sounds as if your daughter is bound to find a great avenue. It might take a few years building up the credentials in a less-than-perfect fit, but here’s where the DIV I athletic discipline and steady goal achievement mentality kick in.</p>