Shelby Steele on Ivy League Admissions

<p>I certainly think that top stats make it highly likely that a kid will get into a highly selective school as long as there is nothing bad on the resume–the problem is that such a kid might not get into any particular highly selective school–thus the need to have a good list.</p>

<p>In addition to epiphany’s list, I would like to add one other possibility for why a kid might be rejected from a top school despite sterling qualifications: there might be something in the essays or recs that might rub somebody on an admissions committee the wrong way, even if it’s not really being understood correctly. There was a piece on NPR that was discussed some time back about admissions at a selective LAC (I forget which one), and one of the examples involved a kid who was rejected–and at least one reason was that the committee didn’t like something he said in an essay. It was something like, “No academic subject really excited me until I got interested in music.” This was interpreted to mean that he was a one-dimensional kid who isn’t excited by other subjects. In my opinion, that’s too much weight to put on one statement, and the same kid might have worded it differently on a different day. The possibility of this kind of reaction adds an element of unpredictability that you can’t do anything about, other than have several people review your essays–but even then, there might be some buzzword that you don’t recognize but that turns off an admissions officer.</p>

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<p>Here it is:</p>

<p>$250 million donation to [your family name] science or performing arts center at [Stanford] [Harvard] etc.</p>

<p>Care to argue?</p>

<p>I’m not sure Harvard would compromise everything, even for a huge donation–would they take a felon with no redeeming characteristics except for money? I hope not.</p>

<p>I’m talking garden-variety kids here, not felons – c’mon!</p>

<p>If you really wanted to try and sort out the truly academically gifted students I think admissions would approach things differently. I’m not sure the SAT which doesn’t come close to touching on Calculus is the best measure, but they could use AP scores, interviews, and they could structure the application to better ask questions that attack intellectual curiosity.
My impression is that the essay is important mainly as a way to tell the school about your “interesting” background not necessarily as a way to wow them with your writing skills or overwhelm them with extra-curriculars. Interesting is the new intellectual.</p>

<p>It’s only fifty million to name the NRB. ;-)</p>

<p>[Naming</a> Opportunities](<a href=“http://give.hms.harvard.edu/naming-opportunities]Naming”>http://give.hms.harvard.edu/naming-opportunities)</p>

<p>sm74, you know I see this stated all the time that the SAT math doesn’t reveal the real math talent because it’s only covering trig. But then why is it that every math genius doesn’t score an 800 math? I know more score an 800 in math than in reading, but still it’s not as if every math-y kid out there is routinely getting an 800 in math on the SAT (the SATII subject math is another story).</p>

<p>I’m not a math expert. I suspect that the SAT math is about reasoning, reading the problem and then having the logic skills to reach the answer. This is separate from being really well trained in higher math. I’m sure it’s imperfect but I think that is the intention.</p>

<p>I’m not persuaded that MIT has any trouble figuring out who the really good math students are.</p>

<p>^^ I know that when practicing for ACT my S had to review for math section, as he had not done some of the math on the test for years. Those were the problems he was missing. (took AP Calc AB as junior and BC senior)</p>

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<p>Not quite. The ACT covers trig – 4 problems worth on it’s math section, and two are always right angles and easily solved using the P-theorem. The SAT-M only goes up through Alg II. (AlgII may cover trig in your HS, but in ours trig is not covered until precalc. In any event, no trig on SAT-M.)</p>

<p>Hunt, #508–yes, but MIT has rejected students who qualified for the USAMO in recent years, and they must know that those students are really good in math. (There doesn’t seem to be anything obviously wrong with the students who have posted this on CC, although I do not know any of them.)</p>

<p>Having served on national panels to select grant recipients in science fields, I have often seen substantially divergences in opinion about a number of the applications. I have also observed the committee dynamics that lead to certain grants being funded, and others not, when there is disagreement. I would suspect that admissions committee members at top schools disagree in a number of cases (including cases of those admitted and those rejected, both), and that the committee interactions can affect whose view prevails. Released snippets about the admissions committee deliberations several places support this view. </p>

<p>I do not think that perfect information about the entire applicant pool would lead all of us on this thread–even–to identify the same students to admit. Clearly, there would be some overlap in the admitted groups. I’d hazard the guess that 1/3 of the admits would be different, person to person, on average.</p>

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<p>Is everyone on this thread a rep or an officer of the same college? Because that is the only way a statement like that can be evaluated, first of all. Most of the people here are not admissions officers for any variety of colleges, let alone would all be looking at the same pile of applications for a single college, which such reviewers are representing, whose institutional mission and priorities they are familiar with, whose student bodies they are familiar with, whose campus culture they are familiar with, and who are experienced at looking at applications for particular indicators.</p>

<p>QM, you continually take this discussion out of the context of application review – a context which includes:
(a) that institution – not the neighbor institution down the road, downstate, or ranked next to it by USNWR;
(b) that year’s applicant pool – not last year’s or the year before (as SamuraiLandshark mentioned)
(c) each applicant’s competition – locally, regionally, nationally.</p>

<p>Decisions are made in context. Not in isolation. </p>

<p>Those of us who have, or have had, children in repeated “solo” competitive events understand this intuitively. It doesn’t matter, if on a scale of 5, or 10, you have landed all 5’s or 10’s for the last 8 years, with all objective elements to your performance having been met. Some talented smart-aleck (said non-resentfully ;))enters your son’s or daughter’s competition for the first time this competition season. Suddenly your S’s or D’s score --next to him–“looks like” a 4.9 or a 9.8.</p>

<p>epiphany, I appreciate that there is a context. However, I have seen groups of people evaluating applicants, all in a single context, and reaching quite different conclusions about individual applicants–e.g., in a “triage,” some applicants are ranked in the top third by some of evaluators on a single panel, while other evaluators rank those same applicants in the lowest third, even though all of us are (supposedly) applying the same criteria, and we are all looking at the same group of applicants.</p>

<p>I am happy to stipulate that epiphany’s daughter would be in the set of applicants accepted by any admissions committee (at least in the year of her application). There are some such applicants. For others, though, there’s a definite element of the luck of the draw.</p>

<p>This discussion I think highlights something that comes up all the time, that the admissions process is not scientific, there isn’t some magical numerical formula involved, it involves a lot of criteria that quite frankly probably differs from school to school and even among people weighing admissions. It revolves around the question of what makes a great student, who will bring the most to a school? The problem is, you can have someone with top SAT scores, GPA and so forth, who otherwise seems like someone who spends all their time doing what it takesa to get their stats, and if it has nothing to do with that, they don’t do it…is that person going to add much to a university? In many ways, colleges already do this, when for example, even the ivy league might admit athletes who are ‘worse’ compared to the 2300+/4.0 GPA/etc, etc academic type (I have to laugh about that, at Columbia in my time, it was guys on the football team were admitted with an 3.8 versus a 4.0…).</p>

<p>It also raises the question, how did the kid achieve those stats? Did they do it because they really are tremendous students with a bright, probing mind, or are someone whose every waking moment was centered around getting the stats as they see it to get into HYP? Did they ever read a book for pleasure to learn something, or was reading only the things that would get them a good score on the AP lit exam? </p>

<p>The irony is one of the reasons foreign students often want to come to US universities is because the education isn’t as oriented to stats as it is at home, there is a wider focus then on GPA or getting great grades on standardized testing. One of the reasons foreign students, especially grad students, come to US research universities is because the environment at home is so rigid, so less open then it is here, and they want that (and many of the foreign students who go back home get frustrated when they see the barriers the dominant culture often puts up). </p>

<p>Another question is the kids background. What is more impressive, the kid from legacy parents who grew up going to the best prep schools, had tutoring, had an environment where the world was literally at their fingertips, where their parents were very well educated, everyone around them is, where they didn’t read about the paintings in the louvre but saw them as regularly as other kids see a movie? How much did that kid really have to do to achieve the kind of input stats an HYP required, and is that impressive, or is the kid with slightly less impressive stats who came from a manufacturing town in the midwest and is the first person in their family going to college, where they achieved despite a modest background? One of the problems with systems like China and India is that being predicated on stats, it gives a lot more weight towards those who already are up there, it tends to favor those who have already made it, since it is likely that they would have the means to ensure those goals (not to mention money to bribe people, but that is another story in itself)…</p>

<p>College admissions are supposed to look at the whole student, and make evaluations on what the kid brings to the university and also stops it from being monolithic in any one thing. What if they took only kids with a 2400 SAT, as a hypothetical example, and those kids were all math/science geeks going into a very few fields…would that make for a broad university? If they admitted kids with those kinds of grades only and the kids had few things they did other then study and get good grades on tests, what kind of campus would that create? </p>

<p>It is funny, there is a direct parallel in music, many of what I am writing about happens in that world. The level of music students these days is staggeringly high, kids come to apply to conservatories with incredible technical skills, at a level that many kids graduating from college didn’t have a generation ago. There are issues with that, though, and they are sort of the same thing.</p>

<p>In music right now, the dominant group going into it tend to be Asians, either from various Asian countries or Asian-American. Like academics, the students are generally known for the incredible work ethic, it is not unknown to see Asian kids who have literally devoted almost their entire time to practicing music and lessons from the time they are very small, I mean multiple hours, including stories of 5 year olds practicing more then 8 hours a day…the problem has been that the training they get in Asia has tended to be focused strictly on solo playing, on achieving high level technical skills, kids coming from those programs often have next to zero ensemble experience, and the training itself focuses on the technical and leaves the kids in terms of musicality parroting back what their teacher told them to do…the analogy to this is the kid whose whole academic life has been focused on the kind of stats that would get him/her into a top school, and has no interests or passions outside that. A lot of kids with incredible technical music skills don’t get admitted to the top music schools, while kids who are less technically adept get admitted because they have strong musicality or playing ability other then the technical, they multidimensional versus the single dimensional ‘whiz kid’…Learning like music is a lot more then simply getting great stats, great hashmarks, and in both attempts to make it singly dimensional can fail to achieve what they are supposed to be about, someone who not only can do well in the classroom but add something, or in a musician, someone who can truly play music, not just play an instrument technically incredibly. </p>

<p>I find it kind of ironic that Shelby Steele is bemoaning how the Ivy League has become ‘less about Merit’ and ‘the level has fallen’ when the admissions standards for most of the people who get in there are staggering, very few kids get in there with ‘lesser’ stats by any means. The irony of his position is that in one way especially the Ivy league is more about merit, and it is in the declining influence of ‘legacy’ admits. In his day and before, the Ivy League was notorious for those who got in simply because they came from the right family, had the right connections, went to the right prep school and so forth,and it was a significant part of the population (these days, though evidence is that legacy admits often are not in the top of the heap, they are still competitive…no C students getting into HYP because granddad went there, dad went there and the library is named after some relative). The Ivy league always had their bright students, but in prior generations that Steele complains were more about Merit, there were a lot more admits who if compared to today, would pale in comparison.</p>

<p>Epiphany wrote:</p>

<p>"Those of us who have, or have had, children in repeated “solo” competitive events understand this intuitively. It doesn’t matter, if on a scale of 5, or 10, you have landed all 5’s or 10’s for the last 8 years, with all objective elements to your performance having been met. Some talented smart-aleck (said non-resentfully )enters your son’s or daughter’s competition for the first time this competition season. Suddenly your S’s or D’s score --next to him–“looks like” a 4.9 or a 9.8. "</p>

<p>Reminds me of an old story, about the little kid’s dad asking him “how did you do pitching today” and the kid gives him a sad look, and says “I had a no hitter until the 5th graders got out of school”…</p>

<p>it is all relative, and it depends on the applicant pool, where they are from, and also, what the admissions people have identified as things they would like to do to improve the mix of those admitted. A kid who is a crackerjack math and science whiz type from NYC might find he/she doesn’t get into Columbia because they have a ton of kids from the area who fit that bill, whereas maybe a student who had great stats and was into working to save the environment or something, or was a poet, fit what they needed. A university that was all full of kids who had spent their life doing only those things they thought would get them into that university wouldn’t be a very interesting place to go IMO, be kind of monolithic and boring…and wouldn’t turn out graduates who had experienced much different from themselves, either.</p>

<p>musicprnt,</p>

<p>A lot of your two posts resonate with me. In a way, I think they are about my post a long ways back on this thread that has refused to die gracefully. That post of mine was about the “voice” of the applicant, and mostly the literacy and general grace and fluency of their mind in tackling topics, most apparently in their application writing but also as evidenced by teacher recommendations, scores in the much dumped upon SAT reading and writing and perhaps publications, seminars or contests. </p>

<p>However, you almost lost me with this line –</p>

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<p>It contains so many cliche’s that are very much grounded in Asian stereotypes. And I know for a fact that it’s wrong. First of all, there are an extremely small number of 2400s each year, far fewer than 1000 and I’m pretty sure below 500. Do you think every single one is a math-y kid robot who just preps all day for ten years or so for the SAT?</p>

<p>I’m going to pm you a very different scenario.</p>

<p>Just wondering…some parents who have kids in elite private schools have complained about other kids from the schools going to better schools with less merit. But have you guys thought about what an advantage going to a private school is in itself? Regardless of income or other resources, students at such schools seem to get a leg up because of the close relationships GCs have with colleges. For some reason, I see no complaints here.</p>

<p>Oh, let’s just be honest here. Shelby Steel nailed it. </p>

<p>The Ivy adcoms simply throw away the bottom “Who is this Kid Trying to Fool?” group of applications, and staple smiley faces to the tippy top group of "URM/Kid from Sitka/ Olympic Medalist/ Book on NYT Best Seller List/Campus Building Shares Kid’s Last Name/Has Name Listed First on Groundbreaking ResearchPaper/ etc. group of applications.</p>

<p>The other 20,000 applications from excellent, but non-outstanding kids are dropped, en mass, from a 3rd floor balcony at the Radisson. The first 1000 that are picked up by the blindfolded, unpaid intern are offered admission. </p>

<p>It makes as much sense as believing that any adcom committee has the time to infinitely parse the minute differences of excellent, but possibly TOO excellent essays that get debated ad nauseum on every thread that has the word “Ivy League” in its title, or whether Kid A is more or less “robotic” in his EC’s than Kid B…</p>

<p>;)</p>

<p>I don’t doubt that some of the top schools’ rejections of students who have 2400 SAT I, 2400 on 3 subject tests, 4.0 UW GPA’s in challenging curricula, many AP’s with all 5’s, and impressive EC’s (at least on the surface) make sense. There may even be such a student out there who is a complete drudge, motivated only by the pleasure of kicking sand (metaphorically speaking) into the faces of his competitors . . . er . . . fellow students, who comes from a privileged background, and never did anything without an eye to Harvard admissions . . . the kind of 2400 scorer who would actually be lucky to be admitted to Dismal Seepage University in Podunk Swamp.</p>

<p>The point I have been trying to make (not so successfully, apparently) is that there are at least some 2400 scorers, with all of the other objective strengths, who are liked by their teachers, wrote good essays, and interviewed well, who nevertheless were not accepted. I don’t know why. But I am not willing to believe that this outcome would make any more sense if I saw all the files for the school (in context), and had a perfect understanding of how they were trying to select their admitted students.</p>

<p>Perhaps other posters will not believe this unless they happen to see it locally. Perhaps I would not have believed it if I had not seen it. </p>

<p>If you are the parent of a student with strong qualifications, I hope that this will not happen to your child. But, from the experience of one of QMP’s friends and another acquaintance, it can happen even if the essays/interviews/and letters of recommendation are all quite good (and a few of these are “knocking it out of the ballpark” quality). Rejection does not necessarily mean that the student did something inadequately, nor does it mean that one of the teachers or GC’s was less than fully supportive.</p>

<p>I don’t believe in some kind of rank ordering of applicants along a single dimension. Clearly that is not possible. Clearly the applicant’s background makes quite a difference in the accomplishments one considers “outstanding.” Clearly one wants a diverse class. </p>

<p>I am not arguing for some caricature of stats-driven admissions–just for kindness in the response to students who are (inexplicably to them, at least) rejected, despite top stats.</p>

<p>I thought they hit a pinata and caught the names of the applicants that fell out. Silly me…</p>