<p>re #766
PG- I actually agree with you on this. It was something I brought up on another thread earlier this year. My Q was why do athletes get recruited by coaches for specific slots in the first round or even earlier at the Ivies and D3 LAC’s, while the artists and other talented candidates rarely get a direct tap by a professor (except for the rare Likely Letter), and just send in their supplements as part of their apps, usually during the regular round. There are no admission slots for oboe players, even though there may be chairs to fill, and the profs may express interest in a candidate to the AdComm, but that is only a factor in the AdComm’s decision, whereas the coach actually selects a certain number of students, in line with the school’s policy re the AI, to play for his team. Then te AdComm decides if they want the applicant. Very different process.</p>
<p>What ensued on the other thread was a discussion that included ideas about why athletics thus athletes are so important to colleges. And a discussion about the Academic Index- how low it goes at various colleges, is it for the team overall or for each player, etc.</p>
<p>One point made there may be the answer: there is enormous recruiting for athletes going on way ahead of application deadlines at the other types of schools (D2 and D1- which award scholarships), sometimes in 9th, 10th grade, even, so maybe the Ivies feel they need to get started earlier with the athletes to compete with this/get some of these athletes to Ivies…?
(Then the next Q is do these D1/D2 schools award athletic scholarships more liberally than they do admits with other talents?)</p>
<p>Also, Stanford is not an Ivy- it does award scholarship money to athletic recruits, while Ivies are not allowed to do this. Ivies are also D1, but they have their own rules.</p>
<p>My objection to recruiting isn’t really because I think it impacts non-athlete applicants at all. It’s more a statement of priorities that I don’t care for - we’ll go out of our way to recruit good football players (etc) but not good oboe players, dancers, chemistry majors, etc. But again, I don’t feel strongly enough to put my money where my mouth and “reject” schools that do athletic recruiting, since I’m moving my kid to one this coming Monday :-). </p>
<p>It is interesting, though, to the point that X amount of slots have been set aside for football players (etc) … that it’s always “the URM” who took my spot, not “the athlete” who took my spot. After all, if colleges didn’t insist that their football rosters be filled, there’d be … more spots open. To be clear, my point is against the people who whine about URM’s taking their spots, not against athletes.</p>
<p>“whereas the coach actually selects a certain number of students, in line with the school’s policy re the AI, to play for his team. Then te AdComm decides if they want the applicant”</p>
<p>The adcoms really don’t have any say if the athlete meets the academic index level and is signed off by the coach. There are only issues when coaches start running out of high end index students and dont have enough low index slots open if a candidate does nt meet the required AI level.</p>
<p>I hate to jump in and prolong this topic, but HYPS athletes do not “side step” anything with regard to the application process. They submit the same completed app, including essays and recs, with app fee. They also submit FA info (including FAFSA). The app is reviewed by the regional rep, the applicant is interviewed by an official interviewer (not required by S for any applicants), and the final decision is made by the admissions committee, just like everyone else. The process is actually <em>more</em> involved than for most applicants, because the majority of recruits will attend a recruiting weekend and must impress and be evaluated by the coaches and the entire current team, as well as receive a positive recommendation from their high school coach. All of this takes place before they are offered a spot. The timeline is driven by the NCAA signing dates for all D1 colleges.</p>
<p>Bay - it is going through the motions. The athlete I know knew she was in in July/August at three Ivies - she just had to say yes to one of them and start the paperwork at that point. She was in before the commonapp was out.</p>
<p>The likely letter was in her hands in October, when Harvard did nt even have early admissions last year.</p>
<p>Stanford of course is different from the Ivies.</p>
<p>Gloworm - S’s school recruits athletes and to the best of my knowledge, provides athletic scholarships independent of need. I wasn’t aware that D’s school provides athletic scholarships independent of need, but I could be mistaken and am happy to be corrected on that.</p>
<p>PG-I share your puzzlement about the priorities these athletic recruiting systems seem to imply.
I also do not feel it is a reason to avoid a school or whatever, just that I do not fully understand it, would hope for an explanation that justifies it in the colleges’ eyes, at least!</p>
<p>The whining, as you call it, goes on about anyone with a hook- URM, Legacy, Athlete, Questbridge, non-FA needing ED applicant, private school students, SES-advantaged, celebrity, development… It is human nature. And the colleges do view applicants differently along these criteria- they set up a lot of this for their own processes, and do have different admissions systems for some. That invites whining, as well as basic questioning about how it all works, and why these different sorting and selection systems are in place.</p>
<p>IMO a lot of CC is about “how do I fit into the application process and admissions selection systems?” " How will I be sorted and categorized?" “How will the selection process work for me?” “How will my application be evaluated and processed?”
It is not necessarily something that happens AFTER the results come in !!! I think we are all hardwired to try to understand patterns and see things as a game. You know, hunting,
finding a mate, using language- these basic human needs cannot be met without us being able to do that!! </p>
<p>She can only get the likely letter after submitting an application. The coaches from Princeton, Harvard and Cornell made offers sometime in July/August after reviewing her grades, SAT scores etc and ensured that she qualified. The coaches make the offer and the student has to commit to one school which is the Ivy honor code system. </p>
<p>Rest of it was paperwork after the fact. She said she was accepting Harvard offer, the other two had to drop out of running (Princeton was still trying to get her to rescind her commitment and go with Princeton). </p>
<p>So essentially she had admission offers from three ivies before any students even filed a single application.</p>
<p>The Likely Letter is issued by the admissions committee, not the coach. HYPS coaches cannot make the admissions decision or offer. The most they can do is say they will recommend and flag her app. I suggest you research this further. Obviously, I am not an adcom, but I am almost positive you are wrong. Including with regard to Stanford, the adcom makes the final decision and does in fact, sometimes reject athletes who are supported by the coaches.</p>
<p>Bay,
First of all, Stanford can award athletic scholarships- it is not in the Ivy Conference. FA at Ivies is only need-based for any and all admits, admissions is need-blind.</p>
<p>Second of all, it is interesting to contrast the filling of an orchestra at an Ivy with filling a sports team at an Ivy. The processes are very different, yet could be the same. Orchestra slots are not automatically allocated to be filled by the Music Dept before and during the Early process at Ivies. With special weekends, revisits, clinics. The audition process is handled by the individual applicant at his/her discretion- I promise you, performing arts applications are at least as complicated as athletic applications- I know- I am experienced with both.
My second D’s HS just said to me, in fact, a few days ago, that they need to do better helping their Arts applicants in the Spring to get everything done, the way they do for Athletes. Athletic recruiting, due to NCAA rules, and the way the Ivies choose to handle it, is just much more structured and somewhat advantaged in admission. </p>
<p>And there are many many resources at the Ivies that AdComms are trying to “fill” with active and engaged students: newspapers, clubs, ensembles, debate teams, you name it. None are “recruited”.
That is the point I am making.</p>
<p>Not sure why you want to make it sound like there is some detailed process here other than a formality.</p>
<p>We have guaranteed admission in Texas if a student is in top 10% in any school. So the students hold it like a trump card in their backpocket knowing that all they need is to file that paperwork to get in and there is almost zero percent chance they will be denied.</p>
<p>Athletic offers from Ivies are similar. There is zero suspense of someone actually not getting in once an offer for athletic admit has been made and accepted. Rest are formalities.</p>
<p>This kid could have gone to several other D1 schools on a full scholarship but her parents chose to pay a big chunk of the fees to send her to Harvard.</p>
<p>Thanks, performermom, I understand the point you are making, and if applicants in the music/arts/theatre world think they are being treated unfairly in admissions, I support their efforts to make it right.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Again, an HYPS athlete does NOT receive an offer of admission (including likely letter) unless s/he has fulfilled all of the same application requirements, PLUS MORE, than the regular applicant. Via semantics, you may interpret this process, only because it is on a different timeline, as somehow “easier” than for regular applicants, but there are no fewer hoops for the athlete applicant to go through than for the non-athlete, and athletes must meet set academic admissions standards, as well.</p>
<p>May I safely assume that this is a bit of poetic license? </p>
<p>Parents and underage students being “wined and dined” as part of the recruiting process should raise a few eyebrows, including from a few people at the NCAA office who do care about such events. Hopefully, the stories about fat envelopes left at the hotel or promises of condos for the entire family will be left for another day. Especially since R. Bush and C. Newton are now members of the NFL! :)</p>
<p>The paperwork takes like 2 hours. It involved so much suspense and outcome was so much in doubt (literally having nightmares about what the adcoms might decide like the rest of poor slobs all over CC) that this kid applied to exactly one other school as a backup - University of Texas where she was also automatically in, just in case. </p>
<p>Princeton coach was ready to go just in case Harvard dropped the ball though, pinging her several times.</p>