Shelby Steele on Ivy League Admissions

<p>@ texaspg and bovertine—ROFLMAO. Trust me, i think you two are funny, and I would much rather laugh than cry any day of the week…and your self deprecation at post counts == as well as appreciation for country music topics == rocks my world. THANK you for cracking me up .ProudMomofS toasts you two.</p>

<p>@bearsanddogs–my kind of people. Thank you. Cheers.</p>

<p>Please let me be out of this thread for good. Just dont mention my kid, and I am. I’ll take all your crap personally all day long. </p>

<p>On the other hand, my kid is golden. Got it? ;-)</p>

<p>ProudmomofS,</p>

<p>Did justdafacts get your S’s high school right? I would really like to know, because I asked about it earlier specifically to guage whether your expectations were reasonable or not. He says 26 grads went on to the Ivy League out of 80 or 90 students.</p>

<p>Bay, Let it go. Please. I am asking your respectfully. Will you do that please?</p>

<p>And jusdtdafacts–I’m asking you as a mother to not answer the question publically. </p>

<p>Move on folks. Shows over.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for understanding.</p>

<br>

<br>

<p>annasdad has lots of time to post because he’s an “older” dad :)</p>

<p>

Actually if you have two Ivy league parents I don’t think 20 years ago it was unreasonable to expect that your kid would get into one if they wanted to, (probably the one(s) where they were a legacy at the very least. Of course anyone who has spent anytime recently (say the last ten years) looking at what is going on in college admissions knows that’s no longer reasonable.</p>

<p>(Though I’d say for my oldest our school’s Naviance records showed that the top 1% of the class had very good chances of getting into top colleges.)</p>

<p>mathmom, I agree with you. Seventeen years ago in college admissions was a different scene, in terms of expectations. There was a sea-change at least 8 years ago, which brought a new level of shock & unpredictability into the idea of “expectation.”</p>

<p>I would say that my post count could take your post count in a street fight, but it’s not real, just a computer mistake. </p>

<p>Also, with reference to the way this thread went, picking apart other people’s posts is a longstanding tradition, but not one that often ends badly for someone.</p>

<p>^^</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Look at the bright side. You finally are below 2,000,000 posts a day. You, slacker!</p>

<p>I actually have to post because I re-read it this morning and realized that I failed completely in my last sentence. My brain thought one thing, my fingers typed something completely different last night. </p>

<p>I believe that the nitpicking can drive people away from this board, and it’s a shame. It’s been going on a long time and will continue. We can disagree with people we disagree with, but too often, it becomes a personal exercise in quoting old posts and taking sentences out of context.</p>

<p>Even when in context, it still becomes a deconstructionist exercise instead of a productive discussion.</p>

<p>It’s hard to watch, hard to participate in and usually the beginning of a thread spiral.</p>

<p>Xiggi - did Pomona move up to 4 or was it 4 last year?</p>

<p>Proudmom- I believe I know the high school as well. Lots of the boys go to state schools, particularly the state flagship, and there are always a handful that go to Ivy or similar schools. There is a range. I might add that my son “had to leave” that school at the end of 8th grade (not for academic reasons) and still made it to an Ivy.</p>

<p>MOWC, their website has a nice 5 year synopsis of “matriculation” . (It is actually a pretty impressive list. ) And, yeah. I knew the school, too.</p>

<p>Edit: 65 “Ivy” schools in 5 years, as an example. And xig is right (as usual). Penn loves them. ;)</p>

<p>Mathmom, I respectfully disagree. I remember when dinosaurs roamed the earth (back in the '70’s) many HS classmates who were legacies of one or more Ivy league schools who were rejected. These were kids who went to JHU or Northwestern or Wellesley- so it’s not like they were applying with a 2.6 GPA.</p>

<p>I think people forget how important geography is in all of this. If you are a legacy (whether 30 years ago or today) and live in an area which is chock full of Ivy applicants, I think legacy only helps you if a parent is a US Senator, a very significant donor (I’m not talking $2000 bucks a year to the alumni fund, which many people mistakenly think makes them a “development case”) or if you are indeed, truly extraordinary on your own merits (played at Carnegie Hall, published a novel, etc.) That’s where living in Scarsdale or Belmont or Winnetka won’t hurt you-- and being a legacy will truly help you.</p>

<p>But being one out of 20 kids from your HS to apply to the same Ivy? Don’t count on it.</p>

<p>At my 30th reunion, many of us came to the same conclusion- most parents (back in the day, as well as now) grossly over-estimate the importance of legacy. Being the Val of a HS in Missoula with high scores probably counts just as much. It is such a paradox- so many people of my generation really stretched to buy a house or a condo (or rent) to live in a community with fantastic public schools- and then realize that their kid looks the same as the other 20 kids from their HS applying to the same list of schools. Not that college admissions is the only reason to try and give your kid the best education you possibly can- but certainly a lot of folks feel that way, and then feel dismayed or cheated or at least let down when the Ivy dream doesn’t materialize.</p>

<p>Expecting you’re owed doesn’t play well, especially when life has been pretty good to you.</p>

<p>Harsh. Yes, I agree. </p>

<p>Let it go, move on, count your blessings. This goes for any of us. You have a choice – you can do this or let resentment and anger age you prematurely.</p>

<p>I want to piggyback on what blossom just said, recalling the rather general phrase used earlier, “feeder to the Ivies.” Realistic “ceilings” are important in that respect.</p>

<p>It’s a problem when one bunches together “acceptances to elite schools, plural (or Ivies, plural)” from one class, and conclude that “lots of other people are getting in but so-and-so has been illogically excluded,” etc. The Ivies aren’t getting together and deciding that collectively they will divvy up the pie in a particular way. Rather, Yale is going in there and retrieving its maximum “quota”; separately, Princeton is; separately, Brown is; separately, Stanford is. So the permutations and combinations of who is applying to which specific institutions, with what objective application criteria, what subjective criteria, what categorical criteria (personal origins, donor/legacy status, etc.), what comparative criteria (journalism or yearbook vs. a different category of e.c.; track vs. basketball vs. crew) can result in outcomes that look very skewed. If the top 3 students all apply to Princeton & Yale, but none of them happen to apply to Harvard, yet students ranked 6th and 10th who are URM’s and/or outstanding athletes, do apply to H & Columbia (& get in), and student #11 is a full-pay and potential donor at Brown which has become Enrollment Management, and gets accepted to B, it’s going to look as if some weird kind of prioriites are involved, when really the U’s are being minimalists about it all. Each is comparing who is applying only to its institution, and is comparing on all the above measures of institutional priorities, including academics, race, geography, income (+ and -), activities, stated field of study, etc. The students most at risk for rejection are those where many (particulary equal to them or just above them) are applying to the same college and are not from a Hooked category. If you’re student #5, but not applying to Harvard, it’s meaningless to say that student #11 was accepted to Harvard ‘unfairly,’ “because” you (in a higher position) were not accepted to Princeton or Yale. The three U’s have nothing to do with each other in such a “comparison.”</p>

<p>Finally (and again, this is not pertinent to ProudMom’s S because I’m not familiar with what the stats were on the students),
Very often in competitive college prep schools, the differences in rankings are minuscule. #6 and #5 could be virtually interchangeable (with one having a teeny tiny lower gpa, the other having an equivalent higher test score than the other), etc. In my older D’s senior class, the Val had to be figured to 3 decimal points. It was ridiculous how close the first 5 students were, and similarly for the next 5 down. A heavy dose of cream was all bunched up at the top in rather unbalanced fashion.</p>

<p>I took a look at this spring’s Pomona results on CC. Stunning waitlists and even probably some stunning rejections. One student offered the realistic insight, having been w/listed, that she had a reduced chance being a white female from CA. (Seriously.) All the LAC’s have reached out geographically, in addition to all the Ivies.</p>

<p>And there were also some Pomona rejections, IIRC, that were acceptances to Yale & elsewhere. One of the posters (I forget his results!) was one of 10 Vals at his school. (Yes, could be grade inflation, but also could be just really good students in a heavily competitive micro-environment.)</p>

<p>To echo what epiphany said, just looking at rankings and even GPA doesn’t tell you the full story, and colleges at least claim they try to look at the full story. In a big high school with a lot of achievers, the difference between the valedictorian and number 10 could be that number 10 got a B in PE in 9th grade. If you were Harvard, how much would that matter to you? Rank can also be affected by taking non-weighted courses, like band, at some schools.</p>

<p>I would just like to add one additional note to this ongoing discussion: just because somebody is annoyed and is complaining about something doesn’t mean that it blights their entire future life (and that of their kids) and that they aren’t able to “move on.” I complain when somebody steals my parking place, but somehow I manage to go on with my life.</p>

<p>Totally agree, Hunt. But if you’re still letting that incident raise your blood pressure months later, I might say it’s time to let it go, not for anyone else but <em>for you</em>. Don’t carry stuff that makes you feel bad. Maybe you learn something out of it all that will useful in the future, maybe not. You can’t change the past, but you can <em>enjoy the present</em> and look forward to the future.</p>

<p>

You should tell my wife–she’s still steamed over some things I did when we were in college. I basically agree with you, but I don’t think remembering something bad is the same as not getting over it. I also think that some people need more time than others to get over things.</p>

<p>I only know one person from my high school (at the time top boarding/prep school) who did not get into Yale as a legacy. I’ve always thought she probably sabotaged her application since she wanted to go to Swarthmore. I’m not saying that parents should have thought their kids were shoe-ins because they were legacies, but if their kids had good grades and good scores it wasn’t a completely unreasonable expectation. My cousins who were legacies at Harvard that were B students didn’t get in, but the ones who were A students did. I don’t really disagree, but when you are looking at your cute little baby, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that their genes should be giving them similar opportunities as you had - especially 20 years ago.</p>