<p>MIT is an interesting case. They seem to be making a concerted effort to admit a more well rounded class these days. I believe that a top math student still has a much greater chance of acceptance at MIT than at other top schools, but it’s not a sure thing anymore.</p>
<p>pg: what about genius math students who may make a significant positive difference in the world? </p>
<p>math seems to me an interesting subject to discuss, because I have been told most significant mathematical research is done at a relatively early age, unlike some other fields where a scholar’s most impressive accomplishments may be the result of decades and decades of study and analysis.</p>
<p>alh - I am also interested in what happens to the very top math and science students, who it seems would need special programming no matter where they end up. The ones from our area seem to head towards technical schools, a variety of elite schools, AND state honors colleges, and seem more focused on getting into a program that will allow them to pursue math(or science or comp sci) at a comfortable level than the name of the college.</p>
<p>I hesitate to call them “special snow flakes”, though, maybe because the ones I have known from our public high school tend to be both talented and self-driven (the type you might have to bribe to leave recreational math aside and finish that paper for English, lol), and who relish the cameraderie of being in math team or computer club or robotics team competitions, not creations of parents mining their connections over a decade or more to position their child for elite school admissions. </p>
<p>But, it is not just in math that schools, including elite schools, run special programs and courses that are by invitation only. Often when students are agonizing over which school to attend, they are deciding between an invitation-only program at a school below the top school that accepted them (some of the most competitive scholarship programs at “lesser schools” turn down numerous students who have been admitted to Ivy’s, FWIW), and being an “ordinary student” at a top school. Or between an invitation only program at a state college, and one at an elite school that is even more selective.</p>
<p>Performermom, No son, I have one D.</p>
<p>The private school my nephew attended for 1 year as a 5th year senior, made the PG kids a special group, so their test scores and grades did not bring down the overall mean scores for the schools senior class.</p>
<p>The Math question also brings me to a question that has been brewing and stewing in my head for quite some time.
[Please carry on separately with the Math question. Math and Science are extremely important to this nation. Are there enough spots for this area in college? Good question.]</p>
<p>MY issue, possibly related, is that when I stand back and think about all this, and imagine all the great kids getting into the top 10, then the next 10, and so on, and then I think about what teens are doing developmentally, and I think back about college in my day, I just think it is about the way some kids just ripen faster than others. </p>
<p>My joke is that the kids who get into HYPSM are ready to run for president. Obviously that is a metaphor- athletes are Olympic quality, scientists have already won prizes, debaters are world champs, musicians have won competitions, poets have been published, some have started businesses, some have created whole new areas of computer programming, scholars have done research and been published… BEFORE going to college. And I understand that very few are admitted on their “potential” alone. </p>
<p>Again, speaking metaphorically, the kids who are accepted by the tippy tops seem to be ready for the real world already, at least on paper! I thought college was a place to continue to learn, grow and mature, to develop talents, explore new interests. Seems that the the tippy tops are doing something different.</p>
<p>I would postulate that there are future Nobel Prize winners, Presidents, Corporate CEO’s, Pulitzer Prize winners, alternative energy designers, creators of medical breakthroughs, etc. who are not ahead of the game at age 17, but who may very well use their college years to develop into full-blown producers of great things for themselves and or society. These kids may not been able to spend their HS years putting together a show-stopping resume, for any number of reasons. These kids go to which colleges? Aren’t these colleges and their students extremely important to our society?</p>
<p>Not every kid is on the fast track, not even the brightest, I surmise.</p>
<p>THIS is why I am so against all the hoopla and mythology about why the tippy tops make or break your chances of success in life, even post-college.</p>
<p>Am I imagining something???</p>
<p>Just picked up this post again over lunch so don’t have a lot of time to respond or reply. First, I think the admission facts are inaccurate. I reviewed the link and it looks to me that it is 14/80 or 17.5%. Second, I couldn’t find any post that stated that:</p>
<p>“Just some, who posted on this very thread that they expected that attending the elite high school would guarantee the benefit of being accepted to HYPSM.” Did anyone say this?? Did anyone say attendance GUARANTEED admission. </p>
<p>No I think the point was that you can understand that a student or parent of a student who attends one of these elite high school has higher expectations because of the admissions stats and they are disappointed when it doesn’t happen. Is that expectation justified based on the data? People can disagree. </p>
<p>PG as to your post 1308, I wasn’t making an argument about tiers, I was asking a question. Why do you get so defense and call me a ■■■■■. From your post, you believe the difference between SMU and NU is significant. Do you believe the difference between Tulane and NU are significant? I understand that you see no meaningful differences between HYPSM and the other top 20. Is this based on SAT scores??</p>
<p>Performersmom- You are wrong. I have experience with several of the tippy top schools and I can assure you that there are quite a few students who are not even close to being prepared for society or even huge super stars in their fields. They need a LOT of fine-tuning! I know of a number of kids who bounced right out of these elite schools during or after the first year. Some came back and some did not. Some were very used to hand-holding- either by the parents or their high schools. College and all the freedom was a new deal. A lot of the kids at these schools come across as very normal kids. They are very bright, and in many cases have some extra talents, but they are basically 18 and 19 year old kids who have achieved academic (and/or athletic) success. Hardly any are Olympians and most would not have been recruited by the true powerhouses in their sports. They won the lottery and got a spot at a highly selective school. Most will still drink too much on occasion, have hook-ups, wait until the last minute to write a paper, etc.</p>
<p>Ok, so to follow my train of thought, these admittees somehow were able to demonstrate that they are very talented during HS, thus on their applications.
For example, a spectacular essay is probably not enough to overcome weak stats or the like.
Where do these kids go? Isn’t it just as important for the less accomplished, less mature to reach and grow and fulfill their potential?</p>
<p>To me, this system at the Tippy Tops is not reliable as a selector for the best and the brightest, can miss some, and as you said can select some who are not really ready or that talented. Being accomplished and mature seem very important. That is perhaps who is most deserving and capable of handling and taking advantage of the programming there…</p>
<p>So, as to “merit”, what is it? How should AdComms measure it?</p>
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<p>I agree with this. I would even go further and say some of these students with almost unlimited potential for future accomplishment don’t perform well in high school pretty much because of the same characteristics which will inform their future success. They may not play the same game most everyone else is playing on purpose. I like these kids. And mostly it seems to me they have the rest of their lives to realize their potential.</p>
<p>Is that true in math? I don’t know - having never taken calculus, forgotten algebra and never understood geometry :)</p>
<p>But someone told me about this guy:
[Srinivasa</a> Ramanujan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan]Srinivasa”>Srinivasa Ramanujan - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>I have been in and out of this thread. Picking up on Jusdafacts’ post(I noticed it a while back too). If SMU and Tulane are not in the same league as NU, then as an employer, I would want to hire students from NU instead of students from those lower tier schools. The fact that students from NU could get jobs easier than those lower tier schools, then NU’s degree is worth more, so more student should want to go to NU over other schools. Same could be said for HYPS over other top 20 schools. </p>
<p>In my opinion, it matters where one goes to UG school. It helps people in getting that first job(even other jobs and business later in life) and getting into graduate schools (including medical, law and business schools).</p>
<p>As a parent, I want my kids to do well in life, it does include financial security. All else being equal, graduating from a top tier school would make it easier for them. I don’t think there is anything wrong in having aspiration for my kid’s to go to best school possible, but it is not unfair when they don’t get in. It just means someone else was more qualified, but at least they have done all they could.</p>
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<p>No, it’s based on assessment of overall opportunities. I find that the student bodies at all of these schools are of outstanding caliber, the professors are generally tops in their fields, and the opportunities so extraordinary that any “tiers” that exist are slight and not managerially significant. I really don’t want to make this about NU, so let’s just talk top 20 non-Ivy, ok? Feel free to substitute Duke or whatever. I inhabit a world in which these differences are slight. I recognize that there are some sub-fields, such as IB, where these differences are noticeable, but for those students not interested in IB … I wouldn’t see any reason not to throw all 20 of the top 20’s into a pile and pick based on personal preferences. There’s no hushed intake of breath in choosing Vanderbilt over Princeton or Duke over Penn or whatever. Maybe it’s different in very selected areas on the east coast, but as people on CC keep forgetting, the world is not selected upper-middle-class east coast suburbia. (And I’m a former East Coaster myself.)</p>
<p>My son will be applying EA to Princeton this fall. I will be disappointed if he does not get in and perhaps even a little angry.</p>
<p>Is that so bad?</p>
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<p>See, I think they aren’t! I think they are picking a BLEND of those kids who have already published their original research / first novel / whatever, AND those kids who haven’t done those things but they think seem pretty interesting … trusting that the latter group will bloom and flourish. And that’s precisely why the 2350 with the really neat essay “trumps” the 2400 with the Intel or USAMO award at times. Because they want a blend of “already done” and “interesting enough that we think will do.”</p>
<p>soo moo- how DARE you feel this way!!! …BLA BLAH BLAH</p>
<p>Good luck to your son!!!</p>
<p>Angry at whom? Hopefully not your son. It makes no sense to get “angry” with Princeton’s adcom, since don’t you seem to get that they are choosing amongst a bazillion qualified applicants when they only have a handful of beds, and if they reject your kid, it’s nothing personal and it doesn’t mean he wasn’t a viable candidate?</p>
<p>I think it’s the anger I have trouble understanding. It’s as nonsensical as buying a lottery ticket and being angry you didn’t win the lottery. That’s how life goes. You weren’t entitled to a spot; if you put up a credible application, shouldn’t you feel good about that?</p>
<p>Well we’re all human and subject to very human emotions. Not saying it’s rational though.</p>
<p>I just finished an excellent book called “How We Decide”. Basically it show through research data that humans are very much subject to the whims of their emotions and this is a good thing (overall).</p>
<p>D1 graduated from Cornell this year. Most of her friends, if not all, are working. One of her friends is in a training program for hospital administration at a major hospital in NYC. She noticed many trainees are also from well known schools. Another friend of hers, who was an engineering major with below 3.0 GPA, was able to get a job in Boston a week after graduation. Another friend, who wanted to do marketing, had to settle for a marketing job for a technology company. This is during one of the toughest job market. The strength of a college’s name brand comes into play when it comes to first job, even outside of finance.</p>
<p>oldfort- congrats to your D1 !!</p>
<p>oldfort,</p>
<p>My son spent the summer at Cornell in their program for high schoolers. My husband and I were blown away by the beauty of the area and of the campus itself. He had the most amazing professor for his Comp Sci class too!</p>
<p>I have noticed the question from alh about my view concerning top math students. I do have more to say on this topic (surprise!), but will need to return to it later today or on the weekend, to do the topic justice.</p>