<p>If it’s so “excruciatingly self-evident,” Pizzagirl, why has there been 100 pages of discussion over whether or not Ivy-league admissions are merit-based, and why didn’t my kid get in, and what they’re really looking for, and what they should be looking for? Yes, Johnny-One-Note, we know you think they’re wrong, but that’s not actually helpful. <em>Given</em> that there are other great universities and colleges, <em>why</em> are people still hung up on the Ivies? Until we can get past that, no amount of “really, they’re just as good,” is going to get the pressure off the poor kids who are trying to perform to the standards being held up for them.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Um…because many of the NMSF students went elsewhere, when they could – when they qualified/had a shot at an institution which is not an NM institution but rather provides even more (need-based) aid.</p>
<p>(Example: several years ago D1 was a National Merit Finalist. Chicago was on her Match list, until her Ivy admissions. Why should she accept at Chicago, since she needed maximum money, when even with the NM money via Chicago, that would not equal what she was offered from more than one Ivy? And, the Ivies she was interested in were a better curriculum and location match for her major?)</p>
<p>Had she not received the other offers, she would have chosen NU or Chicago.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, ask them. The people who tend to be hung up on them tend to be people who are very concerned with what the neighbors will think / how the neighbors’ kids are doing in admissions, and also tend to be under the delusion that gosh, if you drive down the street in a “nice” neighborhood, all the nice houses are owned by HYPSM graduates. The “reason” is no different from why there are people who think that the only nice hotels are the Ritz and the Four Seasons, or the only nice handbags are Louis Vuitton and Gucci. People who aren’t very worldly and don’t know any different. I mean, what else is there to say, really? I mean, if someone REALLY thinks that going to Carnegie Mellon or JHU or Rice or Vanderbilt puts someone at an incredible life disadvantage compared to an Ivy League - that tells me that they just aren’t very worldly, and they’ve probably spent their whole lives in a provincial Northeast bubble. They’re also pretty naive if they don’t get that the brand power of the Ivies wanes as soon as you get out of the Northeast.</p>
<p>“Um…because many of the NMSF students went elsewhere, when they could – when they qualified/had a shot at an institution which is not an NM institution but rather provides even more (need-based) aid.”</p>
<p>Many middle class NMSF’s, who ARE accepted at Ivys’, often go to other colleges because they are offered big time merit $$[ i.e.automatic 1/2 to full tuition scholarships], which is lots more than they would receive in FA, even at the Ivy’s.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Or maybe they liked / chose those other schools and never considered Ivies. I swear, it is frustrating how so many people on CC think that because Ivy mania is pervasive in their area, that all parts of the country are the same way. Hello – travel a little bit.</p>
<p>Yeah, maybe PG, but like they say, it’s always about the money…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In my experience (in education) it’s because there’s too little knowledge of so many of the excellent alternatives to Ivies, some of which have programs or majors unique to these schools.</p>
<p>I’m also going to add (wanted to include it in my previous post here), that I think a lot of this is “psychological,” and is related to expectation. (I think that’s a better word than entitlement, which is emotionally loaded.) One thing that aided our family is that we had zero expectations about specific schools, and when it came to any Reach schools had low expectations, given the exaggerated stories we had heard about the “impossibility” of an Ivy admission, and the near-impossibility of everything else. I think that helped us. We naturally did a ton of research, then, about a variety of places where she might want to attend – including in that investigation a whole bunch of factors (academic, personal, aesethetic, social, etc.). Our thinking was based on “trading” assets of one institution for different assets of others. So even when her h.s. faculty thought we were being too cautious, we had no hard information to give us false assurances, and it took a long time to come up with the list, which at 12 institutions was probably too long (we were told), but we were anxious. And we only pared the list down because she received an early Ivy admission; she got lucky.</p>
<p>yes, menloparkmom, definitely. Works both ways! 
In terms of the finances alone, this is definitely true. However, as PG points out, even people without financial considerations do choose non-Ivies for a variety of reasons.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Such list is not particularly relevant. Many schools do not recognize the NMSF. Then, some are aggressively courting students with merit aid. One year it could be ASU. Another year it could be Tulane. Others major players have dropped in recent years. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>^^ epiphany, absolutely!! PG, did I say ALL? I said MANY. That leaves a LOT of room for those who have no interest AT ALL in Ivys’ . But as long as Ivy’s offer better FA to middle class families than nearly any other colleges, some people will encourage their kids to throw the their hat in the ring. They can always decide against going to an Ivy afterward, as my son did.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Absolutely. We treated reach schools as “well, you never know if you don’t try, your chances of admission are low because they’re low for everybody, but they are zero if you don’t apply.” I am always amazed by people who have “confidence” that they / their kid is going to get into an Ivy or similar school, and then are surprised when it doesn’t happen. Where does that come from? Don’t the published admissions rates resonate with them? Do they think they don’t apply? Unless the new science wing bears your last name, I can’t imagine not thinking that the low admission rates of top universities don’t apply to every single person, no matter how wonderful we all think our kids are. </p>
<p>As for epiphany’s comment about people choosing non-Ivies - you know, really, I live in suburban Chicago, not East Bumble, and save for a couple of pockets, I really don’t see Ivy mania the way it’s portrayed on CC. Of <em>course</em> there are tons of bright kids who are delighted / have as their first choice Rice, or Vandy, or Emory, or Grinnell, or Carleton, or (substitute your own favorite top school). It is beyond weird to me that so many on CC assume that everyone’s first choice has to be an Ivy and that the only reason that one would go to the Rices or Vandys or Emorys is being turned down from an Ivy. It’s bizarre and provincial.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think there is no such thing as being too cautious in college admissions. Seriously. I really cringe at these lists that look like H, Y, P, S, M, a “lower Ivy” (gag) and state flagship (assuming the state flagship is an average state flagship, not a Berkeley, Mich or UVA type). How people can look at these admittance rates and build such a list is truly amazing.</p>
<p>A couple of months ago, my 55-ish neighbor told me he got into Yale, but was “too scared to go,” so he went to the regional private, instead.</p>
<p>I also think that it is completely rational, and not “entitlement” or unrealistic, to expect to study with one’s intellectual peers, and to want to study where one’s major is provided. But I think it is not rational to assume that there’s some kind of descending order of intellectual power with Harvard at the top, and a declining “ladder” of intellect below that (Yale or Princeton next, followed by other Ivies, followed by A,W, & S, followed by other LAC’s, etc.). I.m.o. this is the greatest mythology about the “supremacy” of the Ivies. Someone mentioned something earlier about the cream of professors not being limited to Ivies. Students’ minds flourish when challenged & inspired by great instructors, not just a “name” school. And there are fantastic student bodies at many public U’s as well.</p>
<p>EDITING TO ADD: Leaving out MIT from this ^ list was not intentional!</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>Why? Did his mommy forget to tell him when she applied for him? Those stories are always funny.</p>
<p>Speaking from modern student perspective here, I think there is a strong societal pressure somehow inherent in our education system to seek the Ivies. It’s just where people think the smart people go to get educated, and tons of great kids want to emulate that standard.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Among S1’s and S2’s classmates, there were a LOT of lists that looked just like that. UMCP offers terrific merit aid to a goodly number of kids in their programs, so there was a fairly calculated plan of going for the brass ring or going to UMD (which is no slouch for STEM majors). I also spoke to parents who were willing to fork out the big $$ for HPY et al, but otherwise, they were going to make their kids go to UMCP. Chicago was considered “not worth it” to a number of parents. </p>
<p>Heck, S1’s list was pretty top-heavy, but he knew he could make the flagship work, having spent a lot of time with a couple of professors there. Neither of my kids was ever wedded to the idea of attending the highest ranked or “best” school where he was accepted. Do I wonder if things would be different if he had gone to MIT? Sure. But I look at the likely outcome of his four years in Chicago here and it is not a whole lot different than if he had spent four years in Boston.</p>
<p>Bigbanks - no, it’s regional and cultural. It’s not universal at all. Which is why it can be deconstructed. Look at how kids on the west value and aspire to Berkeley at a level far beyond what you see in the northeast. It’s all regional.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Knowing this guy, that is probably true! Astute as usual, xiggi.</p>
<p>I agree with PG re regionality. I grew up in the Midwest and New England. I had an uncle who was a prominent professor at Berkeley (Fields Medal winner) and some other close relatives who went to Berkeley, and I still wasn’t aware that there was anything particularly notable about UCB except that they had lots of hippies and protests. There was a great scene in “The Graduate” in which Dustin Hoffman says he could go to grad school at Berkeley, and Katherine Ross asks how he knew they would accept him. And he (a Californian who had been indoctrinated to think like an Easterner during his undergrad years) said, “I’ve been accepted at Eastern schools!” That made complete sense to me, and I’m guessing to a lot of other people east of the Mississippi.</p>