<p>I have only anecdotal evidence, but based on my experience, HYPSM+Ivy are not remotely on the radar screen of the kids in our town. This year’s val went to Augustana (Illinois). The year before, Western Illinois. A couple of years ago, there were co-vals, and they went to Illinois State and the local CC. It’s considered a major achievement to go to the state flagship or another Big 10 school. In the eight years I’ve been publishing the local newspaper and reporting on high school grads and their future plans, not a single kid has gone to one of the upper-tier privates. UIUC, Purdue, Michigan State, Illinois Wesleyan - that’s pretty much the top of the list. When someone asks me where my D (who doesn’t go to the local school) is applying and I mention Rochester and Case Western, the usual response is “huh?”</p>
<p>OTOH, in one of the nearby larger communities (high school has about 900 kids, versus our 120), there was an '11 grad who’s going to Harvard. So it’s not unheard of for someone from rural America to get into a top U, just very rare.</p>
<p>I suspect this varies from place to place. In my small town in southern Virginia (30 years ago, or so) it was unheard of, pretty much, to go to Ivies or almost anywhere out of state except Carolina or maybe Clemson. But the top students in the school did aspire to U.Va., or to Va. Tech.</p>
<p>Which confirms … one more time, all together now! … it’s all regional. </p>
<p>And, I have to be honest. If someone wants to just stay in the Chicago area, really, a U of Illinois degree will get them pretty much wherever they want to be, with very few exceptions. The proof is in the pudding. The majority of the well-to-do people on the North Shore who are trying to get their kids into Ivies? Heck, most of them went to U of I themselves and obviously did very well. I’m sure the same could be said about many other cities.</p>
<p>I think the shame of this is that these schools are sometimes perceived as “for others / not like me” - and the old stereotypes of Harvard (etc) being just a bunch of snotty rich kids still holds some sway. (If they are a bunch of snotty rich kids, and you’ve got a great flagship, why would you aspire to join the snotty rich kids?) Let me be very clear - <em>I</em> don’t believe that for one instant, so I don’t get slammed with accusing H of being a place of snotty rich kids!</p>
<p>"Some stats to support PG’s point about regionality. DD goes to a highly selective residential HS in suburban Chicago; average ACT > 31. Rank of colleges by number of apps submitted, Class of 2011:</p>
<p>1 - UIUC
2 - Northwestern
3 - WashU
4 - UChicago
5 - Stanford
9 - MIT
17 - Princeton
19 - Harvard
Yale - not in top 25 "</p>
<p>I assume the regionality you are referring to is spots 2 through 5, and the lower numbers for Princeton and Harvard. Not that the state flagship is number 1.</p>
<p>DD went to TJHSST, which is really a northeastern school, and lots of Ivy focus, but number one destination is always UVa.</p>
<p>annasdad, one of my dear college friends is from a tiny town in north central Illinois. He was breaking groung there just looking at the University of Chicago, never mind any place out of state. I can’t remember what prompted him to become the only Harvard applicant in the history of his little high school, but it was a last-minute, I’m-just-curious kind of shot in the dark. He ended up at Harvard in part because it turned out to be a cheaper option than either Chicago or Urbana-Champaign!</p>
<p>Yes, actually 2 through 4, since there are a few miles between anywhere in Illinois and Palo Alto. The point PG was making, and I was supporting, is that outside the East Coast, there are lots of very smart kids and very ambitious parents who do not consider HYPSM+OtherIvy so superior to the Northwesterns etc. of the world that they insist on applying there and feel aggrieved when they get the thin envelope.</p>
<p>Princeton reports that 99 percent of its freshman students came from the top ten percent rank. Note that the statistics are for enrolled students, since statistcs based on admitted students are mostly dedicated to public relations and the manipulation of the gullible. </p>
<p>However, let’s look at the definition:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And how many students fall into the “reportable” category? 29 percent. Inasmuch as one could not expect the schools to magically create numbers that do not exist, it remains that this statistic is so easy to manipulate that one has to wonder why it’s even used in reports, let alone in rankings a la USNews. Schools not only can decide about inclusions and exclusions but are free to guesstimate this figure with abandon. A fact that schools such as Columbia or Berkeley did not miss. It is a wonder the cheats do not report 101 percent, as it would not be more questionable. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that HS ranking statistics are not what they appear to be. The reported numbers range from entirely fictional to whimsical.</p>
<p>Yes, thank you, annasdad. There just isn’t this grand Ivy-pedestal. Then you come on CC and you find parents who think that the only reason a student would ever choose the Northwesterns, Vandys, Emorys, Carnegie Mellons, Rices, whatever would be “because they didn’t get into any place better” and seem completely oblivious to the concept of “they looked at elite schools, and these are the ones they preferred.” Heck, you even saw evidence of that thinking on this very thread.</p>
<p>Do you think there is an “advantage” given to applicants from rural or small town areas? I’m from a town of about 10k in southwest MI (High School=1000 kids). Will applicants from my school be compared to applicants from throughout Michigan, from schools like Detroit Country Day?</p>
<p>sean, I expect it will vary by school. I think the stock official answer given by many colleges would be that they look at every applicant in the context of his or her school. But that said, it’s an unfortunate fact of life that educational opportunity in public schools correlates with how much money the district has, and that means, mostly, that kids in the 'burbs are a lot better off than those in rural America. Kids in schools with gifted programs, AP courses, IB curricula, etc., just get a better shake than those in small, rural schools with none of those advantages.</p>
<p>That’s at least the situation in Illinois. It’s probably less extreme in other states, since we Illini had the distinction of finishing 50th in Education Week’s ranking of states by equity in school funding a few years ago.</p>
<p>Some schools may include in their “diversity” goals reaching out to rural America, but I would have no idea which ones, if any.</p>
<p>CMU happens to be in the north east. And not to diss anyone, but Im not sure it belongs in the same category as NW, Vandy, Emory and Rice. The individual schools there seem more seperate than at most other elite U’s. Thats not to say that it doesnt work very well for some folks (CMU gets LOTS of applicants from TJHSST, other than the Ivies/HYPMS and the Va publics, probably more than any other single U - in part, but not only, because of their strength in Comp Sci) but I think here its seen much more as a completely different experience, rather than an Ivy substitute. Similarly JHU. And of course UChicago. </p>
<p>Vandy used to have T shirts proclaiming it the harvard of the south, IIRC, so I think its not unreasonable that many see it as an Ivy substitute. Rice I think has been thinking very much in terms of Ivy competition as they have built up their faculty and reputation in the last few decades (using oil money, IIUC) When elite non Ivy Universities are themselves focused on competing with the Ivies, is it really fair to blame parents for picking up on that? </p>
<p>Right now for lots of north eastern kids the southern and midwestern elite Us such as NW, Vandy, Emory, Rice and Wash U really ARE the backups if they dont get into an Ivy. Most families I know take it with better grace than the complaining folks being discussed in this thread (we know one young woman heading to Vandy, AFTER not getting into the Ivies she applied to, but I am pretty sure you will never hear her mom say that Vandy is anything less than God’s gift to American Academe) Do midwestern and southern folks really WANT more northeastern kids to pick those schools over Ivies? I can see why school admins and alums would want that, but it would make it harder for your kids to get into those schools - though OTOH it would of course make it a bit easier for all to get into Ivies.</p>
<p>The problems in Illinois education funding far predate our most recent felonious ex-governor. One of the big problems has been that there is a two-headed monster that runs state government, with the two heads always first trying to devour each other then making up and divvying up the spoils. The two heads are the Democratic bastion of Chicago and the largely Republican suburbs. After the two finish their meal, the rural areas are left with the scraps. Although a third of the population of the state lives outside the Chicago area, both political parties are firmly in the control of the Chicago/suburban bosses, and the downstate Democrats in the legislature do the Chicago Democrats’ bidding and the downstate Republicans obey their suburban masters.</p>
<p>There have been a number of proposals to make the funding more equitable. None have gone anywhere, because it would mean either diverting the existing state education tax dollars from Chicago to downstate or raising the income tax, which would mainly impact the rich burbs.</p>
<p>Even within the rural area, there are huge inequities, caused by the over-reliance on property taxes to fund the schools. In my home county, there are two adjacent school districts. One consists of only a small, decaying city; it has about $9,000 per student per year from all sources for its kids; the property tax rate is over $8 per $100 (including the rate for the high school, which is a separate and larger district). The other includes a lot of rich farmland and a nuclear generating station. Its property tax rate is just a bit over $3, but each kid is supported by over $18,000 in revenue.</p>
<p>Why wouldn’t we want northeastern kids to pick those schools over Ivies? I don’t get your point. Since the reality is that these are all fine, excellent schools, why shouldn’t everyone, everywhere, throw them all into one big pot for consideration (and then base decisions on personal preferences) instead of this artificial separation and elevation of a few? What’s preferable about a system where northeast kids stick to Ivies, midwestern kids stick to NU, U of Chicago, southern kids stick to Vandy and Emory, Calif kids stick to UCLA and Berkeley, etc.? The fun and the value is in the mixing, IMO.</p>
<p>Even if every university in say the top 30 all across the country were considered near equitably by top students, would there be enough spots? As the population grows, will there be any new elite privates to support our next generations’ shining lights? I am not saying it’s horrible to think of a school valedictorian going to a state U but it’s far more ideal if even more top privates would proliferate into being. ;)</p>
<p>There are hundreds of schools, public and private, where truly exceptional students can get truly exceptional educations. A bright kid who goes to a less-selective school and dedicates himself or herself to making the most of the opportunity will do just fine. The myth that there is anything special about a college ranked in the top 30 (or top 100, or whatever) by a defunct newsmagazine is just that - a myth.</p>
<p>I think that coming from a small high school in the middle of nowhere can be looked at big plus by Ivies. However you still have to convince them that you are capable of doing the work. This isn’t really new - 35 years ago I had a dormmate at Harvard who was the first in her high school’s history to even apply to a college out of state, much less Harvard.</p>
They are higher at our (not Scarsdale not a magnet not an exam school!) public high school too. Acceptance rates are higher for that top group too though. If you are in the top 2% have SAT in the 1500 range and have the quality ECs typical of that group your admissions chances are historically pretty good. Don’t know exactly what they are now unfortunately since they’ve done away with the scattergrams or I no longer have access, but they accepted almost 25% of the kids who applied.</p>
<p>My high school isn’t really in the middle of nowhere, per se; it’s part of the largest urban area in my county and a tourist spot for lots of people from IL and IN. Although it would definitely be considered ‘middle of nowhere’ to many people on this board :)</p>
<p>My school offers like 8 APs and I’ve taken most of them. We sent a kid to H in 2009 and another in 2010 so not all hope is lost. I have pretty good stats and GPA we’ll see what happens.</p>