<p>“the kid saw less meritorious classmates win the prize for reasons that seem weak - legacy, wealth and race.”</p>
<p>The kid really does not know the reasons these kids got in and he didn’t. In the aggregate nationwide, we know these factors play a role. But it’s a huge mistake to jump from that to the presumption that they determined the outcome for his classmates. He does not know that they were less meritorious, even leaving these factors aside. He didn’t see their essays. He didn’t read their teacher recommendations. He didn’t watch their interviews. He may know their class rank for sure if the school publishes it (a miserable practice), but chances are, he hasn’t seen their SAT score reports, and I’ve known 17-year-olds to stretch the truth both up and down when talking about their scores.</p>
<p>For that matter, he doesn’t know how his own essays, recommendations, or interview report came out. It’s very possible that one of these came across badly and was the tip factor against him…even though his English teacher thought the essay was brilliant and the interviewer told him she’d give a good report.</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s anything wrong with dreaming of HYPS as a child or feeling very disappointed when the dream doesn’t come true. I do think it’s wrong to presume that you can judge the relative merit of your classmates with just a dribble of the relevant data.</p>
<p>“I left M out of my generalizations, because I don’t believe their admissions criteria are as similar to HYPS. No Div. 1 athletics for example.”</p>
<p>very well, change that from 46 to 31 TJ grads then. </p>
<p>Again, Im pretty sure they were mostly not URM’s, div 1 athletes, or superwealthy. </p>
<p>Im pretty sure at least some were Asian Americans.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I agree with you about the subtle sources of preference for various students. However, I see a difference in hiring a single individual for a job, vs. admitting one among 1600+ students to a class. When such a large number of students are being admitted, I think that it makes sense to admit a student who objectively is likely to be in the top 10% of the admitted group–across multiple criteria.</p>
<p>Also, didn’t you make up a spreadsheet when choosing a spouse? What? Is that not common practice?</p>
<p>Oh, I know athletes, URMs, legacies, etc. get a tip. I’m not saying they don’t. What I’m saying is that having such a tip is not REQUIRED for HYPSM admission, Bay’s neighborhood experience not withstanding. My daughter is my prime counter-example. And she’s not alone. In her blocking group of eight girls one was a legacy and one was a URM. The other six had no discernable tips. And two of those no-tip kids were even Asians too boot, who are supposed have even lower chances than the zero-chance white girls.</p>
<p>What all eight girls were was very smart, very articulate, and very hard-working, high achievers. And what’s even more contrary to the common wisdom of CC is the fact that the legacy girl was recognized by the girls themselves as hands-down the smartest of the bunch.</p>
<p>Hanna - Of course, the kid can’t possibly know with certainty that his classmates were truly less meritorious, even if it appears that way from all known evidence. But we do know that these factors play a role, and therefore that there are kids who will find themselves in that unfortunate category. So, I accept the OP’s description for the purpose of this conversation.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, such statistics are highly unreliable. This is not different than looking at the NCAA/NFL correlations for football players. Even the toniest high schools are not immune to the vagaries of different classes of students. Nothing says that the class of 2011 is anything like the class of 2008 or 2005. In quality or in numbers. There are simply too many variables. And, fwiw, one such variable is the definition of upper middle class white students, especially in this century. </p>
<p>For instance, it would not be unheard for people who bough one of those Mini-McMansions built on the same street than the headmaster’s more humble abode to graduate with financial aid.</p>
<p>I wasn’t going to continue the dialogue, but I really cant let one comment directed at me go unaddressed that was inaccurate. </p>
<p>@ Hanna: "…think it’s wrong to presume that you can judge the relative merit of your classmates with just a dribble of the relevant data. "</p>
<p>Hanna I think its wrong to presume you know anything about what I do or don’t know about my sons classmates with just a dribble of information yourself. (Think about it). </p>
<p>My son spent 12 years at a mid sized private college prep school. 90 kids in his graduation class. When looking at the top 20 or so, i knew them all quite well. I knew their parents. I knew most of them for all 12 years, and the rest for all 4 years. We were all very parentally involved at the school. (Its pretty much required). . What the kids did, what their activities were, what they were studying, how they were doing, etc. was just a basic part of our life and our lifetyles. It was a scholastic community and we were active participants.</p>
<p>While of course I didn’t read their college essays, everything else was pretty much an open book. And as far as college essays–one of my sons extra curriculars was 3 years on their student newspaper which has received national recognition. He was Managing Editor his senior year. His writing is stellar.</p>
<p>I pretty much agree with Post #99 about who gets in to HPY these days. And there were at least 2 others in his class in a similar situation. His high school is 30% diverse, and has a solid financial aid/scholarship program in place. Historically his high school has been a feeder for the Ivies. Still is…5 kids from 90 got into Ivies. Its the comparison of the test scores/GPA comparisons / extra curriculars of the 5 that did…vs the 3 that didn’t…that was our frustration. </p>
<p>The fact is he did every thing right. On a comparison scale, everything was higher than most of the kids that did get in. No lifes not fair. Yes hes moved on successfully. And yes it was a life lesson. And yes–the very original post that started this all–I find completely accurate and believeable. Merit? A little bit. But oh so much more.</p>
<p>I agree, which leads me ask coureur: Of the 3 other white students who blocked with your D, do you know for a fact that they were “upper middle class?”</p>
<p>“While of course I didn’t read their college essays, everything else was pretty much an open book.”</p>
<p>So you did attend their interviews, saw what the interviewer reported, and read what the teachers wrote in the recommendations? And you have seen their SAT score reports?</p>
<p>Because if not, that doesn’t sound like an open book as to everything else. Applicants don’t even know their own applications well enough to know what really happened, much less anyone else’s. A shy student might have had the interview of his life and a social butterfly might have stepped on an interviewer’s toes. A teacher you’ve known for years might love a student much more or less than she reveals.</p>
<p>“While quality of writing is certainly important, I suspect that adcoms are more focused on what is said than how it is expressed.”</p>
<p>Oh, I think the quality of expression is very important. But I’ve read many dozens of well-written essays that would do nothing to help the student get into HYPS, and some that would even hurt. A lot of students mistakenly believe that this is the place to show off their expository skills on some Subject Of Deep Importance, which gets you nowhere. A whiff of entitlement in an otherwise beautiful essay is a real negative. It’s a really difficult genre, and some great writers are better than others when it comes to this task.</p>
<p>Well, I didn’t examine their parents’ tax returns to be sure, but based on the towns they lived in and what they did for a living I’d say that two of the three other white girls and both of the Asian girls were probably upper middle class. The third white girl definitely was not. Her family was probably lower middle class.</p>
<p>Not me, Hunt. I think Steele’s piece is really good. Have read it twice now. And I think all the chest thumping over his sentence on Ivy admissions is kind of ridiculous. Of course, it isn’t just merit. If it were then Ivies would be 90 percent Asian. I think his noodling on American exceptionalism and the awkwardness that idea poses for the Obama presidency is really interesting. </p>
<p>And for the life of me I don’t really see what’s wrong with his writing. I think he makes some subtle points rather well. I may just go order one of his books . . . after all, an author to be so summarily dismissed by the denizens of CC is bound to be pretty good!</p>
<p>ProudMomofS, everything you say is true … in one way, and a tad different in others. Since you have participated in the the life of that school, you have been privy to a lot of stories. Some quite accurate; others a lot less. Here’s an example … the feeder to the Ivies accounts. That particular school in Dallas has a very long history in sending students to the Ivuy League, including very famous people. On the other hand, the feed has never been consistent nor very logical. One school in particular, and despite a strong affiliation with the headmaster has never been too supportive. Others, such as Wharton have been a LOT more receptive to the accomplishments of the … pride. </p>
<p>While admissions to the Ivies has been quite variable over the years and despite the fact that is easily the best feeder from Dallas, the narrative that everyone stands a good chance to “make it” EVERY year as long as he does everything he’d be asked for is not always accurate. Again, the biggest variables come from with the students who matriculate in first, fifth grade, or thereafter. The success of the school is directly correlated with its admissions a decade before the announcements are made in April. </p>
<p>Looking at past successes is usually an exercise in futility as there are no patterns to the legacies, no patterns to eventual development cases, and surely no patterns for athletic prowesses. After all, how do we compare the success at Harvard for a fencer who made it to the Olympics to all successive years with athletes of lesser talent? Same thing for crew or other sports that are sought after at the Ivy League. Same thing for the nationally ranked debaters. And, on the other hand, how do you factor the students who decided to attend UNC over Yale or UT at Dallas over Stanford or Harvard? </p>
<p>In so many words, very little of what REALLY contributed to an acceptance or rejection is known. Walk the sidelines of many games of the Coca Cola Classic league on a given Saturday, and you will hear enough mythical tales of scholarships to fill a good book. The same can be said about conversations in the cafeteria lines or on the bleachers. Parents tell others what they WANT them to know; the rest is on a need to know basis!</p>
<p>Again, none of this will lessen your understandable frustration or disappointment. In due time, you might want to help prepare the parents of the recent class of high schoolers for what will happen three years later.</p>
<p>proudmom - I am also curious about what hook the second generation parents have from your school. I see Brooklyndad keeps asking but have nt seen an explanation.</p>
<p>It is true that Athletics, URM status and low income can push someone over the threshold at Ivies. I disagree that they are being given seats unfairly even if they were not good enough, at least not at the ivies.</p>
<p>To assume someone being number 4 vs 15 at an extremely competitive school makes a difference at Harvard is simply not true since they don’t believe 2400 is far superior to 2200 or 4.5 is far superior to someone getting 4.4. So it must have come down to LORs, essays, and ECs?</p>