<p>MOWC–did you d actually attend Rice? Humidity city!</p>
<p>My niece is a HS senior. She is into band big time and plays the flute. She has friends who play less “popular” instruments and have been offered aid at large colleges with national level band programs.</p>
<p>She graduated from Rice in 2007 and loved Houston much more than her hometown of Dallas. She likes Nashville best, of course! :)</p>
<p>MOWC,</p>
<p>Yes, I know that Ivies don’t give athletic scholarships. Yes, I know your S was a recruited athlete at Penn. Do you think he would have gotten into Penn if he had been equally good at something other than a sport? If not, do you think that’s fair? More importantly, if not, do people who aren’t his mother and/or the parents of other college athletes think that’s fair? That’s really the issue here. And maybe your S would have gotten in anyway…I obviously don’t have personal knowledge. But there are certainly lots of recruited athletes at Penn who would not have gotten in if they were just as good at something else. </p>
<p>Yes, you have to be good at a sport to continue in college…well…sort of…Maybe things have changed, but in the old days, you didn’t have to be all that good a swimmer to get recruited by Dartmouth. At one point, Dartmouth tried to shut down the team because it was very, very weak, but alumni stepped in to stop that as I recall. And, I know someone who wasn’t exactly a stand out fencer who got into an Ivy because of fencing. </p>
<p>Do YOU know how good a musician you have to be to get into the Harvard or Yale student symphony orchestras? How much of an accomplishment it is to end up the editor in chief of the Harvard Crimson or the Yale Daily News? If you think it’s EASIER to win either of these spots than it is to make Harvard’s golf team…well… I disagree. </p>
<p>Oh, and yes, I know your D got a merit scholarship to Rice for vocal performance.</p>
<p>I’d like to chime in on this topic, although I’ve just read everything all at once… </p>
<p>S is one of those “passionate academics” someone mentioned. If he could write proofs, etc, all day, he most certainly would. He’s doing things I didn’t even mess with in grad school (yes, also in math). But he also challenges himself by running track at school…and works on PR-ing as often as he can. Since he’s usually smaller than the other kids, it’s great when he places well, too. And while he won’t ever get a scholarship for it, he’s doing something that he enjoys and will carry over into his adulthood…</p>
<p>D is beginning to realize that she can do well in school (when she tries), but she is one of those “looking toward 2016” gymnasts. We put her in classes after a gym bday party, and she really enjoyed it. She wasn’t all there for the first 5-6 years (due to a brain disorder), and we started noticing improvement with the gymnastics. Plus, she’s small and strong…perfect for the sport. She has indicated an ongoing interest in competing at the elite level, although there have been things that have “changed her mind” (briefly) a few times. Fortunately, we’ve worked those things out, and she’s enjoying herself again. So, we do encourage her to continue through rough patches because we know they’ll resolve, but she’s a hard worker and continues to get better. Plus, we see continued improvement in her academics and self-confidence as she learns new skills in the gym. She goes to an excellent school and leaves one class early each day for practice. We’ve homeschooled her using different methods in the past (depending on her gyms’ schedules), and she learned a lot of stuff during those years that she never would have learned otherwise. She plans to go into the medical or therapy fields (like mom) when she goes to college. So, there definitely would be more to her life if she WERE to make the next Olympic team…and if not, she’s okay with that, too, because she knows what she likes in school and has even tried other sports (recently) and has an idea of what else she’s good at. ;)</p>
<p>So, anyway, that’s my long-winded response. Yes, parents of athletes are on CC. And I personally value education but see my D’s sport as more of an occupational therapy opportunity for her than I do anything else…and it’s my hope that she continues it for that reason. Olympics, elite, scholarships would be fabulous…but sometimes they aren’t the most important thing.</p>
<p>[Table</a> 11. Time spent in leisure and sports activities for the civilian population by selected characteristics, 2011 annual averages](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t11.htm]Table”>http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t11.htm)</p>
<p>According the the labor statistics dept, there’s not one leisure activity american’s engage in more than they engage in watching television. Sports isn’t even a close second. People read more than they excercise on a weekly basis in the US. And we know people don’t read all that much. But they do watch a heck of a lot of television.</p>
<p>I think, sewhappy, that your theory is very bizarre.</p>
<p>I know most american’s are fatter than ever. It’s not because they are working out. It’s because they eat junk and they sit around too much doing nothing physical. Heck, there was a study released recently that showed that people who cleaned their own houses and didnt have “help” lived longer and were more fit by a mile. I’ll see if I can find it.</p>
<p>American’s have never moved less, relied more on the life of the mind, or been fatter. Sad but true.</p>
<p>Jonri- I’m not at all sure my son would have gotten into Penn without his sport. He was solidly qualified- but so are lots of others! I think it is totally fair that he got a bump for being willing to train and represent Penn in his sport, and he was crushed that due to injury he did not get to do that. I guess you think Penn should have kicked him out!</p>
<p>Eliminating athletic scholarships or tips is not going to allow for every qualified student to get into his/her first choice school. It just doesn’t make that much of a difference. </p>
<p>I follow Vanderbilt’s athletic recruiting closely for several sports. I love when they land top high school athletes and I love it even more when they appear to be great kids and serious students. Are they 2200 SAT kids? Most are not. Do I think it’s fair that they get admitted to Vanderbilt because they are 7 feet tall or can throw 90 mph pitches? Absolutely. </p>
<p>I always think people who whine about “fairness” (not just in this context) have a chip on their shoulder.</p>
<p>jonri–where in the Ivies’ literature is the statement that admission decisions are based on principles of fairness? </p>
<p>These are highly coveted slots and where demand exceeds supply, the supplier calls the shots.</p>
<p>MOWC’s observations of actual experiences* are examples of where both artistic and athletic abilities have had value to a certain school. What is surprising or “unfair” about that?</p>
<p>*MOWC’s daughter’s preferences concerning cities is a matter of taste (albeit bad taste) and should not be viewed as any other type shortcoming. Houston over Dallas, please! Nashville? Don’t even go there.</p>
<p>07Dad- I was surprised she liked Houston that much, too, but if you are around Rice and don’t have to commute, it’s pretty nice. </p>
<p>Jonri- I hope you are not trying to infer that I am here to brag about my kids, because you should know me better than that after all these years. I’ve shared the bad MUCH more than I have the good!</p>
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<p>Thanks–not–for the personal attack. I don’t see why the fact that I think that other things should count as much as sports do in college admissions means I think that an athletic recruit who is injured should be kicked out of college. I don’t. So please don’t put words in my mouth…especially words I would never ever say. </p>
<p>And, of course, if I don’t agree that athletic prowess should count for more in college admissions than excellence in other fields, it must be sour grapes. You’re way off base…and this cheap shot says one heck of a lot more about you than it does about me. For the record, I got into my first choice college. My offspring got into first choice college. Nobody applied to either UPenn or Rice. There are no sour grapes. </p>
<p>And 07Dad…the Ivies don’t claim admissions is fair. They can…almost…do whatever they want. I know that. I said that. I just said that I personally don’t think that athletes should get as much of a bump in admissions as they get.</p>
<p>I’ve posted this before, but it’s worth posting again.</p>
<p>[gladwell</a> dot com - getting in](<a href=“http://www.gladwell.com/2005/2005_10_10_a_admissions.html]gladwell”>http://www.gladwell.com/2005/2005_10_10_a_admissions.html)
The article talks about some of the characteristics of athletes that may play a role in this.</p>
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the Ivies don’t claim admissions is fair. They can…almost…do whatever they want. I know that. I said that. I just said that I personally don’t think that athletes should get as much of a bump in admissions as they get.[/qoute]</p>
<p>jonri–I thought your argument was that the magnitude of the bump was “unfair.” Do you feel that if “excellence in other fields” got the same bump that would be fair? Doesn’t the argument that any consideration (bump) given to anything other than prior academic performance and standardized test scores is unfair necessarily follow from your argument?</p>
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<p>Yes, at least it would be more fair. I applaud excellence in sports. I also applaud excellence in something like chess or in music or a gazillion other things. . </p>
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<p>No, not at all. There are plenty of people with high SATs and high gpas and a row of 5s on AP tests who haven’t achieved anything of significance outside school work. I don’t think it’s unfair to prefer those kids with equivalent academic records who have.</p>
<p>Since we’ve changed the topic from following dreams to fairness in recruiting (esp for athletes), I’ll put in another $0.02…</p>
<p>My father used to recruit for two well-known southern colleges, and he once talked to me about this “unfairness” some of you are discussing (re: giving athletes a “bump” for admissions). He said that sometimes the athletic department knows a kid doesn’t have the grades/scores to really make it at the school, but they sign them anyway. A lot of these may be Title I kids who don’t have many other opportunities. By going to college…even for a semester or three…they have the chance to get out of their towns, meet people from all over, and see what else they’re capable of. Some actually do well! And it gives most (who don’t make it in academics) the drive to continue their education, knowing just how capable they are. </p>
<p>Sorry, but that’s hugely paraphrased, but the point is there. Please don’t see these “lower test scores” as taking away from a more deserving student. Consider that these students are just as deserving…in a different way.</p>
<p>Thanks for listening again. :)</p>
<p>lol, Poetgirl, my “bizarre theory” is based partly on our national pastime of eating, drinking and watching sports on TV.</p>
<p>My older brothers did a lot of sports in high school. They got very fat the minute they went to college and weren’t really good enough to play at the college level. Then they shifted their athletic pursuits to beer, chips and TV sports. I don’t think this is unusual. Have worked with many folks who basically live that life. Their kids would play a lot of sports. Mom and dad, both very fat, would drive to all the practices and games, eat a lot of junk food because of the late evenings, then the kids would flame out, not get to play in college or play D3 with no scholarship, and everyone would get fat. I’m tired and being a little crude in how I’m expressing this but I really do think our sports obsession has strange catalytic effect on our obesity.</p>
<p>Fitness is a tool against obesity and sports can lead to an appreciation of fitness. That is not always the case, of course. You sure aren’t describing my family. We have modeled exercise, health and fitness for our kids but still like to drink beer and go to basketball and football games. We even sit in front of the TV and eat chips! My kids, at 25 and 27, are lean and fit. One is a top triathlete and one is training for her 2nd marathon. We all like beer.</p>
<p>I’m sure this happens. But, not in my family. In fact, when D2 gave up her elite practice for a more recreationally athletic lifestyle, she lost a significant amount of weight and became quite svelt and lanky, more of a runner’s body, where she used to have a powerhouse build. To compete like that you have to have a ton of muscle.</p>
<p>We all eat what we want when we want it and we all workout and we are all at the low end of our acceptable BMI. Actually, the hillarious thing was when my athlete was at her strongest, the BMI chart labeled her obese, though she was never above a size 4. Her PE teacher used this as an example of how the chart can be completely wrong.</p>
<p>Anyway, I don’t consider watching sports on TV to be excercise, though we do get into certain teams. </p>
<p>Look, all I’m saying is that to denigrate the life of the body as if it is less important than the life of the mind is counterproductive, particularly on a thread where “balance” keeps coming up. If you think it’s not different for girls today than it was for us when we were their age, and if you don’t believe a significant reason they see themselves differently is because of the Mia Hamm’s and the Gaby’s and Anna Kournikova’s, I think you are wrong.</p>
<p>Even the movie heroine’s are stronger and not damsel’s in distress. I think it is very, very easy to underestimate the way athletic participation has changed the way both men and women see women in our culture, and that has a very strong impact on women’s lives long after the games are over and the diplomas have been handed out.</p>
<p>Well said, poetgirl.</p>
<p>“Since we’ve changed the topic from following dreams to fairness in recruiting (esp for athletes),” to what ever we want it to be, I’ll put in MY 02.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s fair that some schools give so much weight to crazy high (one percentile) SAT scores. So…yeah… and as for …</p>
<p>gladwell dot com - getting in
Quote:
Male athletes, despite their lower S.A.T. scores and grades, and despite the fact that many of them are members of minorities and come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds than other students, turn out to earn a lot more than their peers. …
…"</p>
<p>I want to see the N. I think the " number of male athletes with lower SAT scores and grades that are minorities and earn a lot more than their peers" in Ivies is PRETTY small. As much as I admire him, there is a reason he seems more popular with lay than scientific press.</p>
<p>This whole topic is very interesting.</p>
<p>I have a relative who wants to be a Broadway star. She was in her HS plays at a rural regular (non-performing arts) high school, but she was never the star. She did summer theater camps. She is entering her freshman year in college with a double major in business and theater (she did not get accepted to the BFA program at her college.) Her father told her that she had to have a back up if the theater gig didn’t work out. Her dream is still to still be on Broadway. She said “If I can’t be on stage, I will direct.” I wish her luck, but even her sisters and grandparents say “She is good, but not fantastic”.</p>
<p>I took D1 to see some plays in NYC for her 18th birthday. At the time, she had a few friends who wanted to major in musical theater in college. As we went to dinner and did some shopping in Times Square, I told her to notice how young and attractive all of the sales clerks and servers were. They all would rather be on stage, but they need to work in the stores and restaurants to survive.</p>
<p>We have a family in town who was active in a girl’s youth group. I am the town coordinator for the group. The mom emailed me to say that she and her 3rd grade triplets were pulling out of the group so that they could pursue gymnastics more. They need to practice 6 days a week, and have no time for any other activities. They made the decision right after the Olympics. I wonder if they will regret it when they are older.</p>
<p>gsmomma,
My kid is in the field of musical theater and majored in it (BFA) in college. I just want to say that her goal is NOT to “become a Broadway star,” though being on Broadway would be wonderful of course (and many of her friends have already made it there). Rather, her goal is to have a career in her field of passion and indeed she does (she graduated college three years ago at age 20). </p>
<p>By the way, she never has worked in a restaurant or retail to survive. To the contrary, even her so called “survival” jobs are also in theater and music. Her survival jobs (which most working artists tend to have) have been musically directing musicals, accompanist, vocal coach, teacher, and college faculty member. Even her survival jobs are of a professional nature in her field. But she is also working and supporting herself as a performing artist and has been since graduation day in the areas of musical theater performer, singer/songwriter, and musical theater writer/composer/lyricist. She currently has jobs in ALL of those areas at one time.</p>