But it’s not necessarily easy to know when your child is a middle school student whether they are going to want to target one of these majors or careers later on.
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Some colleges are. One example, when I visited Lehigh with one of my kids in 2018, the AO directly said if you are applying to engineering and AP BC is available to you, then take that class. It won’t go well for you if you don’t have that class when you apply.’
The communication with colleges is a two way street. Students can and should ask questions in live and virtual admissions sessions and even by email with their particular AO.
Many AOs will answer questions about senior courses, whether one should apply with or without their test score, etc.
It is also true that some AOs won’t directly answer those questions, saying something like ‘do well in the most rigorous classes you can’ which obviously is less than helpful. But still important to continue asking the questions.
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But why would Lehigh start the engineering major map with calculus 1 instead of a more advanced math course if calculus BC in high school is almost required for admission?
Because BC isn’t available to everyone?
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Agreed. If it’s offered at your school, there is an expectation that the engineering wannabes are going to be taking the highest level of math. If it isn’t offered, then it’s totally OK.
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I can’t answer that beyond what the above posters stated.
One reason for doing calculus is that it may be important to understand the concepts even if you’re letting a computer do the calculations when you’re in the working world. Example that is relevant to me for example is understanding duration and convexity on bonds. That’s a much simpler example than some other finance applications of course.
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There are many contributing factors:
- Calculus BC isn’t almost required for admission. As stated above, calc BC is not available to all HS students. I also doubt that there is a hard rule of having to take the class to be admitted if available, even though I have no doubt that not taking highest available math level is seen as negative for engineering admissions.
- A large portion of students who do take BC in HS choose to start at calc I at Lehigh. Reasons include wanting to get a solid foundation, improve GPA, or recommended by advisor. Several such students have posted threads on this website.
- Taking calc BC does not mean you automatically are eligible to skip calc I at Lehigh. Not everyone gets a high enough AP score, and Lehigh has a math placement exam.
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Or realizing that calculus can be useful without having to rediscover it.
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Why? I haven’t been on a trading desk in decades, but even then, I never had to do any bond sensitivity calculations.
In fact, I almost got laughed off the desk during one of my summer rotations when they discovered I carried Fabozzi’s book with me.
Before we get shut down by the mods, with respect to the original topic and as @ucbalumnus points out, your highest level of calculus is relevant in limited cases. Unless you’re building the models, there are fewer and fewer situations requiring you getting under the hood of the math, in my experience.
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I would think if a student wasn’t on the Cal BC track, i.e. from 9th grade, Lehigh won’t hold it against them. But if a student took Stats Senior Year instead of Calc AB or BC, that might be held against.
Most of these things are holistic so it’s easy to say - load up - but certainly these aren’t the only kids being accepted. Maybe it’s just gives you better odds.
But I would hope that as a student is starting 9th grade, they aren’t eliminated from anywhere.
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So I believe with all those majors, there will be many colleges where you can start the major taking Calc 1 and 2 as a first year, and then the more advanced math classes as you go on.
As I understand it, the concern is if you want to do one of those majors at one of the most selective colleges, AND you are an unhooked applicant from a high school that offers Calc BC, maybe they won’t admit you if you haven’t taken it.
But even assuming that sometimes happens, I don’t think it would stop you in general from doing such a major.
So I wouldn’t see this as adding a reason to push a kid in middle school faster than otherwise made sense for them.
Is the elephant in the room that extremely smart kids often show promise in middle school, which can be “seen” by college admissions officers in the form of how advanced their math is? (Usual disclaimers about some districts not offering, etc.)
I think it’s a bit in the weeds to wonder which major exactly uses calculus. After all, advance reading or language skills are also considered valuable for college admission, even though few would say that jobs require deep literature analysis. The point is that deep literature analysis is a proxy for being able to learn and understand your world - and perhaps to be a thoughtful person on campus and in your job.
As an AP teacher and “reader” (grader) - it’s clear that APs have gotten easier over the years. This also can be seen in colleges becoming stingier with replacement credit. In fact, calculus is one of the few holdouts in terms of actually covering what colleges want to see (even at MIT/Caltech).
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I actually feel pretty similarly about reading and writing skills as I do about math skills. Most professionals benefit from strong reading and writing skills, but the kinds that are consistent with no more than a typical gen ed requirement in a decent four-year college. And then being an average reader and writer at a college level–which of course is much higher than the general population average–is probably fine for many professionals.
And in fact I think most professionals can complete that process IN college, you don’t already have to be a finished product when you are applying TO college.
And that is basically how even very selective colleges are typically structured. These days, many of them require some sort of dedicated writing course in the first year, and in fact it can be the kind of thing they won’t let you place out of with APs. Even otherwise “open curriculum” colleges may have a writing requirement. And my understanding is they are finding it difficult to know from transcripts and standardized tests and recommendations and essays and such whether kids are really as prepared for college level writing as they should be, so this is an opportunity for them to make sure everyone is up to a sufficient baseline.
That’s not to say highly selective colleges are going to admit many unhooked applicants with serious reading and writing red flags. But I think they know even absent such red flags, people will come in with a range of actual abilities, and they are set up to deal with that.
All that said, I wouldn’t entirely ignore reading and writing development for my middle school child. But I would not think in terms of having them get more advanced coursework than usual for college prep kids while in HS. I would more encourage them to actually read, and write if they enjoy it.
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Why would math in particular be a better indicator of promise than…..anything else?
Cool. Sounds like you may not bend the knee for the ruthless hegemony of Math. Lots of ways to demonstrate potential contribution to the school besides taking BC if you’re not gonna do something math-y in college. Is anyone dinging a math kid who doesn’t take the highest and most rigorous Lit and Language?
Yes, plenty of adcom’s dinging math and science kids whose grades, scores and rigor do not reflect high achievement in literature/composition etc.
I believe these stats are for 2024 cycle at MIT-
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Total Composite: 1510-1580 (Middle 50%)
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SAT Math: 780-800
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SAT Reading/Writing: 730-790
I don’t think a 730 SAT (verbal) is the same as an 800. But there are plenty of 800 verbal kids– and plenty of kids with 800 math scores and low-ish verbal scores getting rejected. The HASS requirements (humanities, arts, social science) are taught at a level that a kid with a 500 SAT is going to struggle, all things being equal. These are not the humanities version of “rocks for jocks”. They are taught by serious faculty members who are experts in their fields.
I’m sure other posters can help out with the stats from other U’s which– despite the popular imagination- “ding” kids with low verbal scores, grades or rigor.
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Not sure that’s the right comparator. I thought the point of the thread was your kid has to do whatever they can to accelerate as quickly as possible to the highest math possible if they wanted a chance to get into Community College. Having high SAT scores doesn’t mean you took the “most rigorous Math courses available.” PreCalc is all you need, if I’m not mistaken. Or English.
I think it would be harder to provide evidence that a school dinged a kid for stopping at their minimum required English level, though it would be very informative to see that. Might calm some of the forced acceleration anxiety.
<pretty familiar with the HASS requirements, by the way>
Highly selective college, not community college. The idea that not having maximum math acceleration was detrimental to highly selective college admissions came from comments by @heavyweightcollege and @Mwfan1921 in another thread, hence this thread to avoid sidetracking the other thread.
There probably is not much disagreement here that not being in the most rigorous (honors/AP/etc.) versions of English courses would be detrimental to one’s admission chances at highly selective colleges. However, the choices of regular versus honors/AP/etc. for English courses typically do not require a middle school choice or placement, and high school English courses are typically not ones that one takes earlier than regular grade level (strong students just do the honors/AP/etc. versions).
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I got it. It was a…joke.
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This has been a fascinating thread for me to read, as I listened to the conversations between my middle schooler and friends. My kiddo will start HS in 9th grade Geometry. When she was took the elementary –> MS placement test, I was pleasantly surprised. This was the kid who struggled with multiplication tables into 5th grade. Algebra is just totally clicking with her. Meanwhile, her friend is completing an at home jr. high charter program. Parent decided to fast track (for bragging rights?), so 7th grade was PreAlgebra in fall, Algebra in spring and summer, 8th grade Geometry, jump into in person public school Honors Algebra 2/Trig in 9th grade (this upcoming fall). -the sequence is Honors Alg 2/Trig –> AP Calc A/B –> AP Calc B/C. Parent is a district employee and convinced public school to waive the 9th grade entrance exam. The curriculum of those at home junior high math courses (Pre Algebra, Algebra, Geometry) at home is Khan Academy. Which loops back to the original thought…is this the best for academic development? I’m mulling over this, so it will be interesting to observe what happens by this time next year for my kiddo’s friend.