And maybe that is the issue. A MSW at USC runs ~$45k tuition per year. A MSW at a Cal State is <one-tenth the cost. Which is the better ROI from the student’s perspective? (Which is the better ROI from the taxpayer’s perspective?)
Small nit: its only 10 years for approved nonprofit/govt type work environments, otherwise its 25 years (plus a tax hit on the amount forgiven for the 25 year deals).
This varies tremendously depending no what type of graduate/professional field and which specific college. Medical schools were mentioned, so I’ll start there. Medical students have some of the highest debt figures of any type of college in the US. Some specific numbers from the AAMC are at https://store.aamc.org/downloadable/download/sample/sample_id/240/ . It mentions 75% with debt and median debt of $200k. The median debt is particularly high at med schools that aren’t known for having especially wealthy students, with a few approaching $300k. However, medical students as a whole have a very low default rate. This partially relates to a good portion with high debt participating in special debt relief/forgiveness type programs. For example, some states have a program where state debt is forgiven for doctors, after working for a few years in a rural area within the state. There is a similar program for federal debt involving working for the government or a non-profit.
Law school attendees also tend to take on a lot of debt. The default rate as a whole is fairly low, but not as low as med school. Lower tier and less selective law schools tend to have a higher default rate than do more selective law schools. Some master’s programs tend to have both high debt and relatively high default rates, particularly ones that are not associated with higher salaries, with a large portion of not wealthy students. Many doctoral programs are funded, which contributes to a lower rate of debt. However, the ones that are not funded may have both a high debt rate and a high default, depending on college and field. It’s difficult to make a generalization across any one group.
The highest default rates of all tend to occur at for profit and 2 year college. However, this group tends to borrow smaller amounts. Among colleges classified as 4+ year, with over 2000 borrowers, the ones with the highest 3 year default rate in 2015 were:
The lowest default rate with this criteria (4+ year with at least 2000 borrowers) were:
At least one MFA program is moving to fund the students they admit so that they don’t end up graduating with a mountain of debt. See the article below on the Brown MFA programs in Acting and Directing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/26/theater/brown-free-tuition-acting-directing-mfa.html
So if the parents can’t help (can’t afford and/or have sibling in undergrad at the same time) and there isn’t merit offered, then how are students supposed to get professional degrees?
Only the rich could get professional degrees then.
My D is a first generation college student. There isn’t a pharmacy school closer than 2 hours away. She had a four year scholarship but still needs to borrow some money.
The Yale Masters of Music performance is fully funded, and has been so for years…I think since 2007.
The median income for a full time worker is under $50k. If the lowest paid physician specialties are at $200k, doctors are still getting rich after paying down their student loans.
Student loans should be completely private, and the lender should take all of the risk. The problem is the government owns much of the student loan system , which encourages non-actuarial political tampering. There would be no issues of public assumption of risk because nothing would be public.
If a specific degree field or program doesn’t have sufficient payback or too large a number of graduates for the number of jobs, the private lenders won’t finance them, and the number of graduates and size of departments will shrink to meet market size. Then no one would be worried about limiting sizes. Alternately the graduate schools will reduce their costs so graduates would be able to repay their loans, or will find donors who will fully or partially fund the students.
@thumper1 My info comes quite simply from my personal experience, both in a Master’s and PhD program. It’s also true of the different institutions where I have taught/supervised grad students, and of those institutions where hundreds of my colleagues studied. In fact, we often talk about one area school that DOESN’T fund their grad students with TA positions, and how hard it is for those people to get the teaching experience they need to succeed on the academic job market. That program is the exception rather than the rule. It’s not just STEM fields, either. Most humanities and arts programs I know have TAships.
I suppose it’s true that many people getting MBAs often pay their own way, but the people in my social circle have always managed to get their employers to pay for the MBA.
Also, I just re-read your post and noticed you mentioned education. I think that is probably one big exception–those teachers who go back and get a Master’s degree, generally to move up on the salary scale. But they are usually working professionals at that point, right? I have several family members who did that, and while they might have taken out small loans, they generally found the cheapest and closest programs, and the economics worked out so that the raise they received after completing the Master’s made it easy to pay off the loan. They wouldn’t have bothered to do the degree if the economics didn’t work out for them.
I think there are a whole lot of master’s level graduate degrees that you aren’t considering.
My kids have MPA’s. As far as I know the only fully funded MPA program is Woodrow Wilson (at Princeton). TA/RA positions existed but were hard to get and generally not available for the first year. Both kids got some merit money to reduce tuition but not enough to eliminate it.
One of my kids looked into MPH and MSW programs as well. I don’t think funding or TA positions are common there either. She certainly wasn’t offered funding from the MSW programs that accepted her.
And students in career-oriented grad programs are definitely NOT all working professionals. Many are going straight to grad school from undergrad in order to gain the credentials for their chosen career; and others may be opting for grad school precisely because they are having difficulty finding lucrative employment with their undergrad credentials.
@calmom Honestly, I think your last paragraph sums up one of the biggest problems with higher education. We have so much credential creep. Why shouldn’t your kids be able to find decent employment with a 4-year degree? Why can’t a BSW be sufficient to land a job, and they you can go back later for continuing education as needed, or to pursue a higher degree if you wish to take a major career leap? That is where the system is, in my opinion and only my opinion as someone who works in higher ed, broken.
Apologies for using the word “most” in an earlier post. Clearly I offended, and I didn’t mean to.
I am a speech pathologist. A masters is required to get certification and licensure to do my job. The grad programs in speech pathology vary in size, but I know for a fact that ALL of those masters students are not fully funded. Maybe 2-5 in a program are given funding. Same with occupational therapy.
Let’s talk the arts…how many masters students do you think get funding in music, art, drama, dance, design? Maybe 2-5 in each masters class…and not full funding either.
And as you noted…a bachelors is not the base college degree expected on some fields of work anymore.
Most graduate students do NOT receive funding for their grad studies. This includes the many thousands who are attending part time and totally are paying their own way.
And yes…sometimes this means…loans.
I was one of only two masters students who received a fellowship in my program for my class. I was mighty lucky.
I didn’t mean the forgiveness program but the repayment terms of a student loan. It’s over 10 years unless you make other arrangements for a longer repayment program. There are several public service/non-profit loan forgiveness programs. Even the 25 year deal has to be applied for and is not automatic.
If students are going to have to qualify for student loans and one factor is the type of program you are enrolled in, that’s going to change the entire nature of government backed student loans. Even if only for grad school, it’s still going to favor one group over another. Doctors and lawyers already have other programs available so take them out. Are you going to favor UCLA over USC? Only for state residents? Only for non-engineering? Who is going to do the underwriting on these loans? Are you going to deny the student who drives the BMW because he has a big car payment but allow the Honda driver, who also has a car payment? How much is allowed? Who decides if it is reasonable?
If nothing else, there should be more education in terms of the implications of having huge debt loads in terms of buying a house, saving for retirement, building financial security, etc. There are too many people who appear to be totally oblivious to the realities of high student loan debt.
Some people want more than “a job” – they want a career that requires necessary skills. And they also want the higher levels of responsibility, respect, and pay that comes with the more advanced degrees. And many do not have skill or career-focused undergraduate major. One does not have to get a BSW as a prerequisite for an MSW — so if a student has graduated with an undergrad degree in English or history or sociology or whatever – then it makes sense to get whatever credential is needed for the career the individual is interested in.
When I said “land a job,” I meant a career based in some way on whatever the student majored in. Again, apologies. I seem not to be capable of productively participating in this discussion without offending, so I’m going to bow out.
@twoinanddone what other programs? Doctors and lawyers have access to grad plus loans just like any other grad student up to a certain amount.
What other programs are you talking about?
OP: Your plan suggested in the original post in this thread would be very difficult to implement for, at least, several reasons.
Few grads report their incomes, how would reported incomes be verified, any such plan would require policing of school data which most likely would be accomplished via discovery in lawsuits filed by disgruntled graduates. Also, regional & national pay can vary widely. In short, would cause more problems than it could solve & may increase costs due to increased compliance & litigation expenditures.