Should The Wealthy Apply for Scholarships?

Parents Forum
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<p>^^Not talking about Peace Corps volunteers, antilaw. (I myself devoted two years after college as a VISTA volunteer.) Talking about ex-pats who live like kings (servants, etc.) on pennies, hanging out with other like-minded, highly-educated people while doing “important work.” Kids will end up back here being educated for free. These are family members, btw.</p>

<p>I thought we were discussing ethics, which presumes judgment. Some judgments are acceptable here (morally bankrupt investment bankers, for example), some not–as usual.</p>

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<p>The real issue for me is when schools give out merit aid to some kids while not meeting EFC for other, “less desirable” kids. </p>

<p>I realize that their budgets are separate, that financial aid comes from one place and merit aid from another place. But it troubles me when my daughter, who didn’t apply for financial aid (mainly because she withdrew her application when she was accepted ED somewhere else), got a $10,000/year merit award from a school, and when I visit its forum here on CC I read about kids who can’t attend because this school didn’t even come close to meeting their EFC. There are many schools that don’t meet 100% of demonstrated financial need and also award merit scholarships – and I’m sure some of those merit awards go to the financially secure.</p>

<p>On a societal level, that serves to widen the gap between the haves and the have nots – since the kids who get the higher SAT scores and have more impressive ECs tend to come from a higher socio-economic class to begin with. (That Atlantic Monthly article on enrollment management in fall 2005 even showed that merit awards were given to the wealthy and not the poor, as a way to ensure raising more money.) </p>

<p>On an individual basis, I think a hard-working kid should be rewarded scholarships without financial need coming into play. On a societal level, this is a troubling trend. So I would feel much better about this situation if all colleges met 100% of need, and if the definition of need aligned more with what most families can realistically pay and if merit aid was given with no consideration of family income (equally to poor and rich zip codes). Dream on, I know.</p>

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<p>I agree that some of the comments on this thread have become ridiculous. </p>

<p>On a previous thread, I asked (out of true lack of knowledge and curiousity) how stay-at-home moms (aside from those with a situation like a handicapped child or ill relative who needed care) were considered in applying for financial aid and many people responded that such moms should not necessarily be required to enter the workforce to pay for college. </p>

<p>Now people are taking the opposite tack and saying that everyone should undertake the most demanding and high paying job that they can get? What if someone takes a less time consuming job so they will have more time to spend with their kids? Do you condemn them, hereshoping? </p>

<p>Everyone’s situation is different and as long as people are not cheating or doing something unethical, what people do in situations such as this is their own business.</p>

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<p>Hereshoping, This is why long time expats know not to talk with their family members about their lives. </p>

<p>Unless you have also lived as an expat on pennies yourself then I am afraid you don’t know what you are talking about. I know MANY people who are in the category you have described who have put many, many people through college, rescued one after another person with life threatening diseases and generally created a social service agency around them which provides a relief network for the families of the ‘servants’ who work for them. Yup, sometimes they don’t have the 40,000 it takes to send their own kid to Colby, but they have improved the lives of many.</p>

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<p>Oh please. We’re each giving our own opinions. I gave mine–you give yours. I didn’t attack anyone here for their opinion, whereas I’ve already been attacked twice, MotherOfTwo and antilaw. So long.</p>

<p>P.S. Pleased to know that you are more familiar with my cousins’ lives than I am, antilaw. Amazing.</p>

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<p>Sorry you took it as an attack. I thought this was a place for discussing different viewpoints and asking questions.</p>

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<p>sly_vt,</p>

<p>I’m pretty certain the u in question would be thrilled if your daughter were to give the $10,000 she recieved to a needy admittee.</p>

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<p>"So, if we are all so concerned about affordability of college, why aren’t we doing something concrete about it? How about a state law restricting the maximum tuition charged by not-for-profit instructional institutions? "</p>

<p>Actually, it would be the opposite - there would be a MINIMUM tuition charged by not-for-profits to those who could afford it, and they could meet their non-profit purposes by providing greater subsidies to those who need it (which would be mostly middle class kids.) COA at the prestige privates is WAY too low, and, relative to the increases in asset/income of the full-freighters, is at its lowest point in 25 years (one of the reasons there are so many more people applying.)</p>

<p>““ALL aid is merit aid.” Aid given to people for being of Latvian origin is “merit”? Interesting concept. To define all aid as “merit aid” is to deprive the word of meaning. I guess that is your intent.”</p>

<p>It IS merit aid, if the college see value to all non-Latvian students in having Latvians on campus. And I don’t have any problem with it. I have no problem with merit aid. I have major problems with what the father is doing to his son. (If he wants to buy him a condo, let him.)</p>

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<p>MotherofTwo,</p>

<p>I don’t think that is the intimation. The point is (at least to me) that why should the children of, for example, low-income stay-at-home or leisurely-pursuit oriented parents be more deserving of MERIT aid than the children of hard-working financially-responsible parents?</p>

<p>Your description of the mom who stays home to provide her children with the best-possible home life goes against some sort of argument that these children were somehow “deprived” and are therefore more “needy.”</p>

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<p>Bay, </p>

<p>I am a little confused. I was responding to this thought from hereshoping:</p>

<p>“I fail to see why a family who has made other choices (i.e. taking a less stressful and demanding job in order to travel, or choosing a lesser-paying job for “fulfillment,” or who are just plain unwilling to adequately support their own families, and who therefore may be eligible to receive full-rides for their kids) is any more ethical than the millionaire’s family.”</p>

<p>Maybe I have lost the train of thought of the argument?</p>

<p>In any case, my personal opinion still remains that what people do in these situations is theire own business.</p>

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<p>The merit being judged in ‘merit aid’ is merit of the students, not their parents. Should a student’s achievements be devalued because of the choices of their parents to pursue a ‘less than fiscally ideal’ life path?</p>

<p>In the context of a parent with profound wealth I think the student in question can be encouraged to apply for and then accept the merit scholarships, and then the family can/should do the right thing and donate the funds to the scholarship fund of the university. Pay it forward?</p>

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<p>I was reading Denzel Washington’s new book (I’ve forgotten the name) at Border’s last month and he has an interesting take on this. His son was quite the HS football player, recruited by some big name schools. When Morehouse College offered him a football scholarship, Denzel called the coach and told him to save the scholarship for another recruit, and that he would pay full freight for his son.</p>

<p>The coach’s response? He was offering the scholarship to his son, not to the father, and that it was in recognition of the son’s hard work and talent. He further went on to tell him that he’d be doing his son a disservice if he were to take that away from him.</p>

<p>Really, that put it in perspective for me. You can apply that same logic to academic and merit scholarships, I think.</p>

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<p>I see absolutely nothing wrong with a wealthy student applying for and accepting merit aid, if offered it (the issue of whether a school should offer merit aid to wealthy students is another issue entirely). I see LOTS wrong with dad rewarding son with a condo for doing so.</p>

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<p>Denzel, by all accounts, is a decent, generous man who probably donated big $$$ to some sort of scholarship fund or deserving Morehouse program. I agree with his son taking the scholarship. It’s a point of pride & accomplishment. I know Rudy Guilliano (sp?) did some sort of similar thing. Either turned down his son’s athletic full-ride or paid it back in a donation.</p>

<p>As for merit scholarships, as many are very well known & extremely competitive, doesn’t the kid deserve to list it on his resume? He earned it, not his parents. While marite’s gazillionaire sounds greedy, I think he is the exception. Guess he never heard about tithing. The US higher education system, as well as the hospital network, is standing on the backs of generous philanthropists.</p>

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<p>I just thought of another reason for taking athletic $$ even if you are rich. At many colleges, non-scholarship players don’t have access to the tutors, couselors, guidance, & other team benefits that the recruits do.</p>

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<p>First, I happen to be a big fan of merit scholarships. If fact, I think there should be more of them. They reward kids who have worked hard and taken their studies seriously. They are incentive, and most of us as parents realized early on that incentive is sometimes necessary to force kids to do something they don’t want.</p>

<p>There are some people who don’t need help with money for college, and there are some people who need a huge amount of help due to poverty/living situation etc. For most people though, they fit into the large in-between gray area that can use/need some help. Merit scholarships are one way for these folks to make ends meet, and in some cases be able to go to a college they would not otherwise be able to attend. For colleges it is about getting the students they want, to create the learning atmosphere they want. If this money helps make it work out for both sides, what is wrong with that?</p>

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<p>If the Harvard endowment was turned into merit scholarships of $45,000 per student, and Harvard has 6,500 students, and their endowment ceased to earn additional money through investment, they could afford to do so for 153 years. No need to cry for Harvard, and no need to restrict financial aid to the needy. Why doesn’t Harvard give away $20 or $25 billion to other deserving schools, or start another dozen campuses across the country (or the world)? If education is their mission, they could certainly do more than they are currently.</p>

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<p>There are a lot of slippery slopes in this thread…ones which I’m going to try to avoid…</p>

<p>WashDad…you’re right, no one should cry for Harvard. Sadly, though, the endowment (which is huge) is not evenly divided amongst the different schools at the University. The Education School, for example, only just this year was able to provide its doctoral candidates with tuition stipends. The School of Public Health offers next to nothing in need-based aid besides loans. The Divinity School is in the same boat. The only students who get full rides usually are undergraduates at the College or doctoral candidates at the Faculty of Arts and Sciences (the grad school of the College). Regardless, the endowment is full of restricted funds - many of which are encumbered to the Med, Law, and Business Schools - and many of which are only able to be used for certain reasons. Financial aid is often times the largest line item in a college’s annual budget, but the endowment and the financial aid budget are not tied to one another as closely as you are assuming. </p>

<p>Here are some of the issues with merit-based aid: </p>

<p>1) There are schools that are so prestige hungry that they are robbing Peter (their need-based aid budgets) to pay Paul (the kids getting merit aid); there are schools that are literally spending 60+% of their aid money on merit aid. You’re not going to find this extreme amongst many elites, since many do not offer merit aid, but in our nation’s top public institutions and in the second, third, and fourth tiers of US News, it’s happening. Keeping in mind that the vast majority of students in higher education in this country are attending publics and colleges that are not selective, this is distressing, as the cost of attending college is going up every year while students’ abilities to pay for college is diminishing. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, merit aid is squeezing need-based aid budgets in the upper echelons of higher education. All schools want to maximize their tuition revenues as it is a source of funding for the college (clearly). Many schools can do this by strategically offering a token award of, say, $5000, to a no-need student. The token merit award is often incentive enough to enroll such a student over a competitor offering no merit money…the school still gets $40,000 from the student, usually one with high testing and gpa. Prestige goes up by enrolling more of these students…and who loses out? The students seeking need-based aid. Clearly, I’ve oversimplified this, but Ehrenberg’s work “Tuition Rising: Why College Costs So Much” details this quite well. </p>

<p>2) We do not live in a world where every student has the same opportunity to achieve or succeed. The playing field is not and has never been level for all students in our education systems. Sadly, academic achievement and, dare I say, SAT and ACT scores, often correlate with income level. This is why the vast majority of students receiving merit-based aid at elite colleges in the United States are disproportionally in the top quintile of the american income bracket and are white. Several educational researchers (mcpherson & schapiro, kirp, ehrenberg) have spoken up about this phenomenon, but many institutions continue to ignore the implications. Since most merit aid recipients are identified by gpa and SAT/ACT scores, it often ignores lower income students. </p>

<p>I agree that merit-based aid can be used as a wonderful incentive for students to achieve. However, it is often not used in this way. Rather, it often times rewards students who are already privileged by attending good high schools, have support networks, and do not deal with discrimination educationally or otherwise…namely white, upper middle class + kids. See the history of the Georgia Hope Scholarship, for example. Simply calling merit aid an incentive for achievement ignores a lot of the social, economic, and racial disparities that plague society and education in the United States…</p>

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<p>Washdad:</p>

<p>Harvard has 6,500 UNDERGRADUATES, not 6,500 students. The total number of students is nearly 20,000. Its endowment of $30 billions is for the whole University, which includes the Law School, the Business School and the Medical School as well as smaller graduate schools such as the Divinity School, and of course, the Faculty of Arts and Sciences which is the only one relevant for undergraduate education. The FAS is currently in the red to the tune of $80 millions, or nearly as much as Harvard is spending on financial aid.
I’m not crying for Harvard. No one should, and no one is asked to cry for Harvard.</p>

<p>The only reason I brought up Harvard as an example is that I have learned to navigate the Harvard website. I could have done the same calculus with Princeton, or Pomona or any need-blind school. And let’s face it, there are quite a few other colleges which charge the same amount in tuition and fees but don’t have the same endowment as Harvard. What should they do? Provide merit scholarships of $45k per student to all students? And if not, why just Harvard? </p>

<p>EDIT: Crossposted with adofficer with whom I agree.</p>

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<p>Adofficer: Thank you so much for your perspective – I’m so glad you found the parents forum and are contributing here.</p>

<p>Your comments confirmed my concerns about the system and the direction it is heading in, and you said it much better than I did.</p>