Skip an elite school, and doors will close

If we are going to make this mainly about money (and a few posters are), then I’m still not convinced that not going to an elite school “closes doors” beyond a very FEW professions.

DH graduated from Tailgate State in 1983. In 1985, his second year at a job in Dallas, he made 450K. In his industry, the elite school degree is seen very rarely. Most successful people in his industry went to the state flagship, the other two “big state Us,” or SMU. Many of his peers went to his university and came out with Finance degrees. Those with intelligence (and contrary to an obvious elitist mindset, there are plenty of people with high IQs who just would never have even thought of going to college in the NE, just not on the radar), the right personality traits, and a burning ambition are the ones who weather the ups and downs of this profession. There can be years with little success, but other years, compensation is well into 7 figures. There have probably been a total of 6 years in 30 that DH has made a big fat zero. The others he has never made less than his second year in the business, and some years has raked in big money.

Someone made the comment, “sure, someone can make a lot of money in Houston, but then they would have to live in Houston.” Besides the fact that that sentiment is more of the same snotty, better than thou nonsense people are objecting to, we aren’t suggesting that someone raised in Boston move to Houston in order to make money. Telling someone born and raised in Texas (or Indiana, or Utah, or Arkansas, or Illinois) that they would “have” to live in their own state to make a lot money doesn’t exactly inspire a lot of angst, and it doesn’t make them any more provincial than someone who thinks working in NYC is the only way to “really make it.” What that is saying to THEM is that yeah, it’s possible to “skip the elite school” and still manage to make a big salary, all while staying close to home, their families, and their support systems. I know some really wealthy lawyers who went to their state Us. They weren’t gunning for SCOTUS or to work in only a handful of firms in the NY, Boston, Philly, DC, or Chicago. They were content to make their fortunes in their home states, where clerking in the 9th appellate circuit sounds nice but is not a requirement.

I hesitated to bring up money too much here, because I believe “success” is so much more than that. What’s the point of making a lot of money if you end up divorced, a stranger to your children, don’t give back to your community, etc.? But since several people here insist upon making money the defining characteristic, I have to say that even this theory hasn’t played out in my experience and with many of DH’s college friends. There haven’t been any closed doors which happened as a result of their college choice-it would be more about major. We don’t have the net worth of Donald Trump, but so what? At a certain point, how much money does a person actually need? Other than travel and a couple of beautiful homes, I just don’t buy “things,” so most of our good fortune will probably end up going to our kids and various charities when we are gone. It’s great to have that security, but DH never would have been willing to sacrifice leaving our families, our friends, and the place he loves in order to get it. The same probably would be said by the corporate president in Kansas, or Nebraska, or Idaho, or someone at the top of their profession in Wyoming or Oregon.

The elite schools are amazing centers of learning. I think if a kid wants to go there, that is great. If he gets in, even better. But go because of the great things those places offer, not because they believe if they DON’T, they don’t still have ample opportunity to get to a very great place in life. Saying doors don’t close to any significant degree if you don’t go elite is not = to saying elite schools don’t offer some very great things. Some of the elite or bust posters are trying to twist the argument away from the OP and turn it in to an argument which is NOT being made.

There’s no arguing against GS or Big Law being a road to wealth. What many of us are arguing, however, is that there are a whole lot of people all over the US finding their own path to wealth without going that route. They are not outliers, they are around in big numbers, and it seems that some people don’t even realize that there is a huge world out there full of intelligent, educated people who are happy to “stay home” and bring in the big bucks in “non elite” companies or professions. As @PizzaGirl said, that money is just as green to them. They did it without going to an elite school.

Perhaps the doors to Big Finance were closed to DH as a result of his second tier college degree, but there were still dozens of other ways to get the golden goose, so what did he really miss out on? He is very smart and had a really high SAT score, but a lot of the extra goodies one gets intellectually at the Ivies and others would frankly have been wasted on him. I, OTOH, would have loved to have lived in that world for a while. To each his own, though. The title of this thread just doesn’t ring true for anything other than a very narrow scope.

Wildcat, your links are great. Thanks for posting them.

Northwestern Professor Rivera’s piece was fantastic. The super elite schools are composed of Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Yale and Wharton. Stanford is too far from and east coast and there are a lof of students from Yale who aren’t interested in Wall Street. :slight_smile:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027656241000065X

Monydad, I am sorry. Cornell is not good enough. :slight_smile: It is a second tier school along with the other Ivies. I don’t think Berkeley or Michigan rate. Columbia and NYU are ok. :slight_smile:

Although, I liked the article, parts of the article turn my stomach. I don’t want to play in that world… And at my age, I guess I won’t. :slight_smile:

The insecurity of all these bright people is a little much. I guess the human brain can only handle so much.

A major problem I have with the Lauren Rivera article is its use of law, management consulting and investment banking as examples that employers only recruit from elite universities and pay undue attention to extracurricular activities.

First, those industries are hardly representative of all industries in the US. They are 3 very narrow industries that only employ a small segment of the population. Not everyone aspires to a career in these fields. In fact, most people do not. Lawyers, management consultants and investment bankers are often derided and disdained on main street as soulless worthless greedy leeches who provide no value to society.

Second, not all lawyers want to go work for large law firms or clerk for the supreme court. Many do not. All Fortune 500 companies have their own internal counsel. Firms like Microsoft, Google, Apple or Amazon employ hundreds of lawyers working on patents and other law related areas, and all are making a very good living. Many lawyers who join IT firms get stock options, a perk that they don’t get in law firms. They also don’t have to work the long hours and travel as much. And these firms do not recruit only from elite schools. Many recruit locally from local law schools.

Management consulting is one of those jobs that sound a lot more glamorous than it really is. First, the job, just like law and investment banking, involves long hours and lots of traveling. Management consultants as a group probably travel more than anyone else. It’s difficult to have a relationship or a family when you are a MC.

The partner track for MCs is grueling and very few can make it to partner after 11 long years. For most MCs, their eventual goal is to go work in the industry, especially for those who get sick of the traveling and want a family(partners do not travel any less). MCs walk on eggshells. They constantly have to please not just their internal managers and partners but the external clients, if they lose an account they can kiss the partner track goodbye. Not to mention one of these clients may someday become their employer when they leave MC, either because they didn’t make partner(didn’t bring in enough new clients) or become sick of the traveling and want a life. So eventually, these elite school grads often end up going to work for people who didn’t have fancy degrees.

As for investment bankers, same deal. They have to go suck up to the Startup techies who either went to state schools or didn’t even go to college, or have to suck up to rich business owners who again mostly didn’t go to elite schools to buy whatever IPO stock they’re trying to push.

In the end, all 3 are professional services firms, which means they get all their businesses from other firms, which means they have to suck up to clients to get work. And who are these clients that they have to wine and dine hoping to get business from? Mostly mid to high level managers in industries who didn’t go to elite schools!

Most lawyers, management consultants and investment bankers do not make partner. Even though they make a good living while they are associates and managers in these firms, so do those with similar degrees from non elite schools who work in industries. These careers are way overrated, as are most people from elite schools who clamor to get into them. The vast majority of people who aspire to these careers and think that an elite school is their ticket to riches usually end up with a rude awakening after 10 years when they didn’t make partner and have to go beg for jobs from people with “second tier” or much lesser degrees.

“But you also have to concede that getting hired to manage employee communications at GS is not the same as getting hired in a front line banking role.”

Concede isn’t the word that fits here. Sure, apples aren’t oranges. But oranges aren’t superior to apples. If I had one kid hired to manage employee communications at GS and the other hired to be in a front line banking role, I’d be hard pressed to think one had a better job than the other.

We are talking professional jobs here. We aren’t talking a comparison of front office vs sweeping the floors. Nope, sorry, I know too many bright people with careers in corporate communication and related fields to accept that front line banking is “superior” inherently.

“But you can’t argue with people who actually work in this field that they’ve got their facts wrong. Can a kid getting a BA at night from Pace get a job at Goldman Sachs when he graduates? absolutely. Is it likely to be “the same job” as the kid from Wharton? No. Can’t argue with the facts on the ground.”

I don’t argue this point at all.

Hey people, Wall Street (YAWN!) is NOT what it used to be. Stop using Wall Street as the gold standard please. The reverence to it on this board is disappointing, considering how the industry damaged our economy so badly in recent years and how it’s been gradually trying to influence policy makers to let them go back to their old fraudulent ways of doing things.

The sexiest jobs these days are in the Silicon Valley.

Ruth Porat’s pay at Google is going to be 3x more than what she gets at Morgan Stanley!

When people work 80-100 hours as analysts earning 60-70k and doing mostly tedious but demanding administrative tasks at Goldman Sachs, they are just being used as cheap labors.

"There’s no arguing against GS or Big Law being a road to wealth. What many of us are arguing, however, is that there are a whole lot of people all over the US finding their own path to wealth without going that route. They are not outliers, they are around in big numbers, and it seems that some people don’t even realize that there is a huge world out there full of intelligent, educated people who are happy to “stay home” and bring in the big bucks in “non elite” companies or professions. "

Exactly. And it’s hugely provincial not to be aware of that. It reminds me of the poster here who had a friend’s son take some internship in some city in the southeast and was shocked, shocked I tell you, that it was, well, a city, with streets and restaurants and theater and all.

I grew up in the NE. I get how one is “trained” that being outside the NE is hardly civilization til you hit LA. But I expect the people on this board to be a little more sophisticated than that. So it’s disappointing when they think only GS (etc) is the Path to Wealth. It says they aren’t nearly as worldly as they think.

No, the sexiest jobs are in southern california.

See what I did there? :slight_smile:

Md2019, what is your point?

My kids didn’t have tippy top SAT scores. We didn’t give two hoots about college rankings when they applied…to undergrad,myriad or professional schools. And neither did they.

Oddly, both coincidentally got their undergrad degrees at decently ranked schools. We had no idea when they applied what the rankings were…and frankly, didn’t care.

And for the record, neither of my kids wants to love in NY. At all. It’s a nice place to visit…but none of us in this family wants to live there.

We have friends and family, however, who are happy to be in NYC. Their choice. I don’t begrudge them their choices, and they don’t begrudge me mine.

And you know,we adults all seem to have had successful and fulfilling careers regardless of where we went to undergrad school or where we chose to live when we finished college.

You know…money can’t buy everything…if folks wish to chase these high paying jobs at GS and other places in NYC, fine. That is their business, but it’s not what everyone aspires to do. Period.

@wildcat394957‌, people in MBB consulting have pointed out that Rivera actually has no clue how MBB consulting recruiting actually works.


[QUOTE=""]
Md2019, what is your point?

[/QUOTE]

His/her point is that the distribution of SAT scores at any “lower-SAT-score school” has a sigma of 0.
(I suspect that he/she also thinks that this distribution at any elite school has the same sigma of 0)

PurpleTitan,

You bring up an interesting point.

Those that report or write about businesses know less than people who actually work in the businesses. When I watch CNBC or Bloomberg, I gag at the bs.

We have ‘experts’ that pretend to know what they don’t know.

We are fed a lot of crap.

Fractalmstr,

I thought the porn industry was doing poorly. :slight_smile:

I’m not “looking down” on kids graduating on time. (I have current college seniors who are graduating this May and June, god willing - and there ain’t no 5 year plan on my dime!) And hey, I think it’s great when young employees are paid well enough to move out of the house :slight_smile: It is the worshipfulness devoted to a handful of professions – as if they are somehow more important than other professional careers – that is what I object to.

BTW, I went to a school that has a School of Communications. I will freely admit I looked down my nose at the Comm Studies majors (we all did, LOL) since I was a “hard” major - econ and math. And then I got into the real world, and realized that there’s a lot of merit in what they did, and the people who pride themselves on being oh-so-much-smarter-because-they-are-quantitatively-oriented – they would fall flat on their faces if they had to direct a social media engagement or manage a PR crisis. “Smarts” comes in ALL different forms and gets used in ALL different professions.

Blossom, as to your specific situation, NP v. MD; while there are similarities, I’m not sure what they are using as a metric on ROI. So, while many health professions are now trending towards a doctorate type degree, an MD, will literally make up the additional residency/fellowship years, in about 2-3 years. So, instead of salaries in the low 100s, someone who does a sub specialty will be in the 350k+ neighborhood, depending on the sub specialty. Shoots, I know many adult internist that clear close to 300k…

Md2019, that is a good point. I am not looking down. I am not looking up either.

For those that want those ‘elite’ jobs, great. I wish the job getting process was a little more open. Instead we get this exclusionary group think and a major financial crisis.

95 percent of Americans haven’t gone anywhere for 20 years. That is a whole generation. Maybe those at the top should be insecure.

Does md in your screen name stand for Maryland or a doctor or?

It is interesting that doctor’s can’t afford to live in areas where financial people can.

Furrydog, I love your post.

Actually, the correlation is much weaker for the LSAT and MCAT because they…especially the MCAT tests for different things.

I’ve also known far too many college classmates and colleagues with near/perfect SAT scores who ended up bombing the LSAT(Logical and Analytical Reasoning were the killers) or the MCATs(Weak on core science fields being tested). On the flipside, some folks with middling/low SATs actually killed their LSAT/MCATs due to having a natural talent for the type of analytical thinking/talent to “thinking like a lawyer” as some lawyer friends would put it or natural strengths in the core science fields respectively sometimes along with a bit of hard work in relevant undergrad coursework.

Also, from what I’ve heard from lawyers, there is some correlation between one’s LSAT score and one’s likelihood of not only passing the bar exam, but also whether one has the ability to “think like a lawyer” to some extent.* If this is the case, it’s not too surprising that not all high SAT scorers score highly or even do passably on the LSAT as not everyone even in this high SAT scoring group has the talent or the inclination to become a lawyer.

  • This is one reason why most lawyer friends would strongly advise someone whose LSAT score is low...especially below the 50th percentile against attempting to attend law school. The risk of graduating low from one's law school class at a lower-tiered law school and/or failing the bar and thus, poor/non-existent job prospects in the lawyer field after accumulating $150k+(in-state public law school) or $200k+(private law school) is too high.

FWIW there’s some formula running around that predicts LSAT scores from SAT scores, and it predicted my kid’s LSAT score save only a one point difference. Coincidence no doubt, but I found it interesting.

Earlier this weekend, @TheGFG‌ wrote “Select just about any non-STEM major and research which universities have the best programs, and you will find the same 10-20 elite schools on the list every time.”

Um, no. Just no.

Seriously, stop it. Reading these sorts of statements is just painful.

Am not claiming there’s NO correlation. Just that it’s much weaker than say the GMATs or moreso the GREs because the latter are structured and test for more similar fields than the LSAT or MCAT.

@Pizzagirl, it’s clear that you loathe finance. That’s fine; you’re entitled to your opinion.

However, before launching into your diatribe against the world of finance, it would have been good if you had noted:

  1. I stated that students at elite schools will "disproportionately" pick GS (an investment bank), Bain (mostly known as a consulting firm), McKinsey (a consulting firm), and, elsewhere, Google (an Internet company), Facebook (also an Internet company), etc.

Only one of the companies that I mentioned is a financial institution. The others are consulting firms and Internet companies, and the consulting firms and Google have a very broad range of activities.

So your focus on “finance” is yours alone.

  1. I also stated that students will "disproportionately" pick those companies. That does not mean that "everyone" will, could, should, must, etc. pick those companies. What it means, for example, is that if there are 20 students and 10 companies to pick from, the 5 that I listed will attract more than their proportionate share of applicants. Instead of the 5 companies I listed getting 10 of the 20 students, perhaps they'd get 14 of them.

That’s an observable fact, verifiable by reviewing employment statistics of students from elite schools.

You may dislike a fact, but that doesn’t change its truth.

So your focus on “everyone” going into finance, to the exclusion of other fields, is yours alone as well.

  1. Not all companies are created equal. Some pay more than others. Some have more prominent senior executives. Some have better benefits. Some offer a variety of characteristics that, when put together, result in a disproportionate number of students wanting to work for them.

That’s how the world works, like it or not.

Finally, you should also note that I don’t work in finance. I did, and I didn’t like it at all; I thought that the work was mind-numbing and I didn’t find it interesting. Do I loathe the field, though? No, I’m fine with letting people make their own choices about what they like and don’t like, and I don’t begrudge them for it.

Now, hopefully we can go back on topic.