Skip an elite school, and doors will close

Parents Forum
841

@Pizzagirl, my parents are happily retired (and have been retired for a long time, as they retired mid-career) and are enjoying life. They’re very satisfied with the schools that they and other family members attended.

You’re certainly welcome to make choices in life that result in not retiring young, unlike my parents. They don’t sneer at you for your choices, and you shouldn’t sneer at them for theirs.

My parents (and I) see college and grad schools as a means to an end (gainful employment), and think that you should get the biggest bang for the buck from it. If you base your college and grad school decision on rankings, then you can never say that you didn’t make the most of the opportunities that were given to you. Things like weather, campus appearance, etc. are all things that don’t matter once you’ve graduated, and someone can make the decision to be happy most anywhere.

842

Happy it seems, however, that your parents and perhaps you look at a career as simply the way to make the most money in the shortest amount of time and not something that is otherwise fulfilling and important. I could not have retired mid-career, but more importantly I did not want to because I like what I do and still find it interesting and rewarding. I am not making megabucks at Goldman, but we are comfortable and I actually don;t mind coming to work each day - although admittedly a few more weeks of vacation per year would be nice.

843

Personally, I’d rather do something I love and fulfilling than work as a means to an end.

Working to retire early seems like a waste of life while you’re working. Life’s short. I’d rather enjoy the ride than the destination.

1 Like
844

My DH would go nuts retiring “early.” He loves to work and stay busy and productive. But he works for himself, so he has zero of the downsides of having a boss or dealing with corporate annoyances, doesn’t have to account for his time to anybody, etc. When he was undergoing cancer treatment, it became really clear how advantageous it is to be self employed.

I’ve said before that DH is so good at negotiating deals, that he even loves working our garage sales, which I always detest.

845

Dang. Passive-aggressive much?

846

So, OP suggests the path to happiness is:

  1. Torture yourself in high school, focus on nothing but getting into a top-10 school.
  2. Once at the top-10 school, torture yourself again, by focusing on nothing but getting into a top-10 grad school.
  3. Once at the top-10 grad school, focus on nothing but getting the most lucrative job in one of a few acceptable fields - IB, law, maybe corporate something or other, maybe medicine, but that's it.
  4. Once at the lucrative job, choose the least stomach turning, stress-inducing specialty - for example, practice corporate law instead of finance or litigation. You don't have to love your job, or even enjoy it. Just do it.
  5. Suffer through your working years for the shortest possible amount of time, and retire before you're 50.
  6. If you had time to have a family at all (which would be impossible for any woman following this path, unless you hired someone else to raise your kids), repeat the entire thing all over again with your kids.

This could be the best argument yet for NOT sending your kid to an elite school. Who wants to be around people who think the only purpose of education is to get a job and make piles of money as fast as you can so you can quit before everyone else?

Rather than USNWR, take a look at “The Alumni Factor” rankings. They are not perfect, but the authors base their rankings on alumni success, which includes financial success, personal growth, career preparation, job opportunities, and overall happiness. You will be very surprised to see the schools on these top-20 lists.

For top LACs, some of the usual suspects appear - Middlebury, Swarthmore, Amherst - but ranking even above these is Centre College, in Kentucky. Right up there in the top 20 you will also find Sewanee, in Tennessee, and Kalamazoo, in Michigan, for example.

In the top 20 universities, Harvard ranks 13th overall, while Georgia Tech is higher up, at number 5. You will also find Auburn and Mississippi State in the top 20.

This is not a ranking based on SATs and GPAs and how hard it is to get IN to college. It is how successful students are AFTER college.

Graduates from these schools have clearly proven that no doors were closed for them. They made good money, had a wonderful undergraduate experience, developed intellectually, socially, spiritually, made great friendships, received excellent job preparation, and are happy. These are the kind of rankings that make sense to me.

Disclaimer: I am thrilled that Centre and Sewanee are two of my D’s top choices for this fall. Equally thrilled that we refused to play the elite admissions game.

847

Oh, c’mon, really? Is that what it’s like at elite schools? Just kids torturing themselves?

Disclaimer: I make no money, but by ‘College Confidential’ standards, I am the real winner. My first born child was accepted to Stanford, and because I make no money, he practically goes for free on need-based aid.

When he comes home, he sits lonely in his upstairs room, struggling to study for finals, or prepare for next term’s courses. He has no friends…none. He tells me that at school he gets up, goes to class, studies, eats, studies, goes to class, studies, eats, studies and then sleeps maybe a few hours. The next day, repeat. But I know that he will get into the Top 10 grad school. Because you know, it’s all about the ranking of the school where you get your last degree from.

I am a bit envious of his former high school friends when they come home, and are out picking daisies, or shopping, with the friends they made at Birmingham Southern, or Sewanee, or Rhodes, or wherever they went where the students are real, unstressed, in it for the right reasons, and just have a zest for life and a thirst for learning and are not in it for jobs, money, power, prestige. Did I say they were in it for the right reasons? Because they know they’ll get into a Top 10 grad school, because you know, it’s all about the ranking of the school where you get your last degree from. And to think of all those fools who are trying to get into Harvard undergrad, when it’s really about getting into Harvard grad/med/b-school. Because it’s the ranking of the institution where you get your last degree from. I just know all these kids from those LAC schools will make it into top 10 or 20 graduate programs. Because rankings really don’t matter. Being in a state honors college matters, not just a state school, but rankings don’t matter.

The last time I was at the Farm, although the day was bright and sunny, as it usually is in California, there seemed to be a cloud over the campus. It just seemed dreary and dull. Students walking alone muttering strange formulas to themselves, their eyes downcast, no one making eye contact. Sad, really.

848

^^^^Well, that does sound like a dreary existence. But I know several Stanford grads, and while they worked very hard, they still had fun and made friends. I doubt any of those girls regret going to Stanford. When I toured it, I really fell in love with it and I think I would have had a great time there.

I would encourage your son to reach out and become active in one of the many social or special interest groups on campus.

849

The way I see it, there are really three types of people in life:

  1. those who sacrifice much of their childhood in order to attend an elite college,
  2. those who enjoy childhood while still staying on a college-bound track, and
  3. those who goof off entirely during childhood and don’t go to college.

Most people would consider #2 to be optimal as they arguably get to enjoy all three phases of life (childhood, working years, and retirement). Those in #1 will likely have a stressful childhood, maybe enjoy their working years, and probably enjoy retirement. Those in #3 front-load their lives, thoroughly enjoying childhood, but sacrificing their working and retirement years.

When all is said and done, I don’t really think there is a right or wrong way to live life. I personally believe that having some care-free fun when you’re young is important as it gives you some positive memories to look back on, as well as a genuine identity. I think many elite college-bound kids these days lack this genuine identity as they are consumed with trying to “fit the mold”.

850

You forgot a type.

  1. those who are late bloomers, and attend college after gathering experience in the working world.
851

HappyAlum - you described yourself as being raised to be “on the ball.” With all due respect, thinking that there are significant differences between #3 and #9 is the exact opposite of being on the ball.

I’m retiring at the end of this year - at age 51 - and will have plenty of money to do so comfortably. I WENT to an elite school, as did my husband, as do my two kids. I love elite schools! But that’s because I value education and value it for its own merit, not based on what kind of job it gets me.

you can’t seriously think you’ll have different lifetime earnings from 9 vs 3, can you?

852

Um I think @skrlvr is being sarcastic…

From HappyAlumnus in another post:

“I am a PBK graduate of a LAC and due to the stress of constantly studying, worrying about grades, etc., I view undergrad as your daughter did: pure hell; my LAC was a complete nightmare for me.”

^^^Pure hell??? A nightmare? This is incomprehensible to me. Why is this considered the best way to spend four years at college, a time that should be anything but a nightmare?

In the end, it is what you make of it. I went to Bryn Mawr and graduated magna cum laude. I studied a lot and did well, but it was one of the best experiences of my life. The people I met were the complete opposite of what HappyA describes. Having the opportunity to spend entire days and weeks reading and thinking and learning about philosophy, art history, Shakespeare, living in a close-knit, nurturing community?

For me it was a dream come true. I am pretty sure my daughter will have a similar experience at any number of LACS, no matter where they fall on the USNWR list.

853

^^^^LOL, okay, I have too many windows open at the same time, not paying close enough attention.

854

@4kids4colleges‌, :slight_smile:

How many universities are elite? 3? 10? 25?

And Lacs?

A friend runs a top ranked grad department in a certain field. The friend gives speeches around the country…and outside the country.

Several years ago, I asked how many Williams graduates apply to your department?

“I never heard of Williams.”

:slight_smile:

855

My Dallas friend who is a Williams alum says he wished he had gone to SMU instead because almost no one has ever heard of Williams. He said I was one of the very few social acquaintances he has ever met who actually knew anything at all about it.

856

I was told SMU has a nice alumni network.

Last year, 3 seniors from my kids’ northern california high school decided to go to SMU.

857

Well, I’m not going to say it’s one the best schools ever, but yes, the alumni network is very strong. The Cox business school is very well thought of here, along with UT-McCombs.

858

Williams is harder to get into than SMU. :slight_smile:

859

Wow some of these posts seem so sad to me.

Striving for pure hell just seems like such a sad path to me.

860

Of course it is. That really wasn’t the point, though. But maybe you are being facetious. I’m having trouble with that today.