Skip an elite school, and doors will close

I said “…some people go from the best of the best in their 1 or 2 thousand student fishbowl, and suddenly you are in a class of 2,000 kids who ALL are as good as you or better.”

It certainly was nowhere near all of the students, and it either petered out when people realized that they were happier being among smart people (who could act stupid on occasion) than being the top among many, or those kids dropped out.

Strikingly, of the three people I knew with perfect SAT scores, one is a struggling artist (still, in her 40s) with no name recognition, one is exactly in my job (college professor at a no-name four-year college), and the other is dead. The one who passed was at a HYP and had a nervous breakdown within two years, then went to an ag school. He never quite did anything with himself after that. Last I heard before he passed, he was unemployed and volunteering a lot.

And little old me, low-ranked in HS for someone who went to an Ivy, tied with one of the 1600 SAT “achievers”. I know that guy was planning to be a lawyer, I have no idea what happened.

The point of those stories is that it does “ruin” some people to go to “elite” institutions, but none of them had the lack of morals (or lack of feeling the need to apply their morals in their job) to be investment bankers. One wanted to be a lawyer and apparently was waylaid.

I went to a university that has a top five business school, sometimes considered #1 or #2 in the world, and those kids were NOT all going to become investment bankers. Yeah, some did, but not all of them did. And the rest of us were engineering or liberal arts or physical science or arts majors.

@Pizzagirl, nobody has said that an Ivy or other elite school, and job on Wall Street, is the only path to success. Of course, plenty of people make piles of money with a degree from a state flagship, or something else. Nobody has said otherwise.

You should note, however, that the people who “who might own construction companies, car dealerships, small restaurant chains, etc.” don’t necessarily make a high salary in their first jobs right out of school. The economics major from Yale who becomes an analyst at Goldman Sachs at age 22, however, does. Thus both of them have to work very hard to build up a nest egg for retirement; the Yale student just had to work more and spend more on education early on, and the State U. graduate probably has to work more later, once s/he’s out in the working world.

I’ve been bashed in this thread for focusing on getting a strong degree and then focusing on getting the highest-paying job possible right out of school, but however you make your cash–through my approach or through going to a state school and then building a car dealership- it requires a lot of tough work. There’s no easy way.

I think it’ smarter to get the best degree that you can and make cash as quickly as you can because you never know what life brings; maybe it will bring ownership of a very profitable small business, or maybe it won’t, but at least if you make your cash early on, then one doesn’t have to worry so much in the future.

Separately, if someone doesn’t know about Williams, it reflects on the person, not Williams, which is an amazing school. I’d heard of it at least in junior high.

I think it’s smarter to do what you enjoy and not be the kind of person who chases money for money’s sake.

I think it’s smarter to make your own decisions in life vs take a newsmagazine so seriously that you would seriously think there is a meaningful difference between 3 and 9. Or 3 and 19, really, for that matter.

“however you make your cash–through my approach or through going to a state school and then building a car dealership- it requires a lot of tough work. There’s no easy way.”

Life requires a lot of tough work.
And people are inspired by different things. Yours happens to be money for early retirement. You expressed a lot of surprise that other people wouldn’t want (insert high salary example here) which tells me that you’re not all that reflective on how other people do things.

@Pizzagirl, BTW, the US News rankings are how they are because they reflect a variety of inputs. A school ranked #3 instead of #9 isn’t ranked higher just because it’s more “prestigious”; the #3 school will likely have somewhat sharper students, more resources, and better placement.

My parents and I looked closely at all aspects of the different schools that varied only slightly in the US News rankings. The higher-ranked school was substantively very much better in most respects (except weather and campus aesthetics, which I didn’t care about) than the lower-ranked school. We visited both, making a trip almost halfway across the country for one, and did thorough research and talked to alumni of both, and others who knew both well–even one who’s now a president of a university.

In addition, every single job that I’ve had seemed like the best opportunity, in all respects, including overall fulfillment, at the time that I took it.

Finally, as you know, we can’t count on Social Security to provide for us in retirement, at least not for people of my age. Unfortunately you have to work and earn your resources, for the most part. In addition, most of my relatives give very generously to charity, meaning that the more they make, the more others can benefit. Money for money’s sake? Never said that; money so that you can avoid worry and be generous is the point.

You are welcome to live your life as you please, but you should not constantly attack, belittle and question the motives of those who think and act differently than you do.

FallGirl, you may be older than me.

I can’t remember the lyrics to any song except the lyrics to Happy Birthday. Funny how minds work. :slight_smile:

HappyAlumnus, I kind of lived my life the way you like. Without going to a top ten school. Without all the elite bs. Didn’t work ‘that’ hard. Probably made a little less than you would like too.

Whatever works… :slight_smile:

@dstark, however you lived your life is absolutely fine and I’m sure that you have had a happy and fulfilling one. To each his or her own.

Thst’s right! :slight_smile:

Does “critical thinking” make you “krill” for “too-big-to-fail [academic] leviathans” (arts and sciences graduate schools) instead? Yet again: if you claim to believe something, you should think about what it means. Would you discourage people from attending graduate school? Would you launch jeremiads against Swarthmore and Oberlin? (Why) is the corporation named “Academia” better than the one named “Goldman Sachs?” I think academia far more dangerous. I note that this post is addressed to many posters, not only the two that I quoted.

I met Professor Deresiewicz once, and I overheard someone asking him if schools that feed many of their graduates to such graduate schools are likewise dens of sheep. He replied to this effect: “to an extent, yes, but graduate schools don’t feed students to the professoriate, to a specific profession.” I regret that I cannot recall the whole response. I will only rejoin that whatever profession a graduate degree leads you too is likely longer than transitory, if not because of student loans and obligations then the endurance one needs to survive graduate school in the first place, for which a transient job will likely not suffice, and among the jobs that one can perform for the longest is teaching, and I would contend that academia and its offspring are the most pernicious sheep-breeders of all, of those sheep of whom Raphael Hythloday said, “They devour human beings themselves, as I hear.” Academia creates krill who think they are not krill. I confess that I would much rather be a (virtuous) sheep than whatever I am now, because the fire of martyrdom burns within my head, and I must needs end up a holy fool or an Alonso Quixano, or perchance a Tom O’Bedlam or King Lear, if I continue, “pathless on all paths” as is said of Oedipus and Hadji Murad, raising my sword against the world and ending as Raskolnikov, Pozdnyshev, Bazarov, and Eugene Onegin do. Nothing for it: I must fight or retreat from this depraved world, and if I retreat, I will not cease from likening myself to Saint Augustine, perhaps an unpleasanter hell than anything I have seen in Homer or Vergil, even in Dante. Then I will become as an explorer and combatant Sir Newton (who, with Hume, purported to chart all of experience with his mere inductions).

It’s curious that you used those rankings you cited for one end and ignored half of the results. Curious, but not unsurprising. Hypocrisy (irony?) is the ugliest and subtlest of monsters, in fact the singular monster–this, I presume, the intimate relation between hypocrisy and treason, was in Dante’s head when he placed Marcus Brutus, Gaius Cassius, and Judas Iscariot with weepy Lucifer in the bowels of Hell.

I am almost ready, having drunk of the life of St. Teresa’s ecstasies, to fight all of these

Rabelaisian tripes and tropes
Montaignian peripatetic periphrases
monsters
rogues
scurrilities
farces
travesties
demons
devils
fiends
paranoid schizophrenic prolIxities
deliria
reflexive reciprocalities
reciprocal reflexivities
insouciant desiderata
crepuscular and dilucular incongruities
farcical irrelevancies
transcendental and sublunary indeterminacies

the first and the last, the honored one and the scorned one, the whore and the holy one, the wife and the virgin, the mother and the daughter, the members of my mother, the barren one
and many are her sons, she whose wedding is great, and I have not taken a husband, the midwife and she who does not bear, the solace of my labor pains, the bride and the bridegroom,
and it is my husband who begot me

at once.

Edit: No, the automatic spellchecker is the most loathsome thing of all.

Happy- you are putting a lot of faith in a lot of somewhat arbitrary rankings.

I went to a business school which was hovering somewhere around number 9 or 10 when I attended back in the dark ages. It is now ranked higher than that- no doubt due to some shrewd fundraising and marketing on the part of the administration, as well as an increase in GMAT scores over the last few years- which I believe they’ve achieved by expanding the number of internationals in the entering classes. You can boost your mean scores pretty quickly when you take the 50 highest scoring kids in China and India…

Trust me- none of this improves a whit the quality of the education I got there. The faculty was the faculty, the student body was whatever it was when I got there. Placement in solid corporate jobs was 100% (I don’t think I had a single classmate who didn’t get multiple offers even though we graduated into a bad recession).

But the experience of going to that school at #9 vs. #5 is unchanged. And the education I got is unchanged. And people who “know”, realize that the ranking is somewhat meaningless especially since the same 15 MBA programs tend to move around a lot every year, depending on who did what. When NY became a nice destination for young people (who wanted to move to NY during the "Ford to NY “drop dead” days of near bankruptcy?) NYU and Columbia became more attractive. When Tech is hot, Stanford is hot. (When tech busts, Wharton and Harvard look much more appealing).

Kellogg- always Kellogg. A fantastic MBA program 30 years ago, a fantastic program now. Nobody who hires for a living gives a hoot what Kellogg is ranked this year or next year or least year. (I didn’t go to Kellogg btw).

" A school ranked #3 instead of #9 isn’t ranked higher just because it’s more “prestigious”; the #3 school will likely have somewhat sharper students, more resources, and better placement."

Rofl that there are meaningful student body diffs between 3 and 9. Come on now.

You’re still missing the point. School 3 has 30,000 opportunities. School 9 has “only” 28,000. Big deal. Any one person can only take advantage of a dozen or so. The differences aren’t MEANINGFUL in terms of outcome. The differences are more meaningful in terms of personal preference (weather, location, Greek life, sports, etc) at that point.

“My parents and I looked closely at all aspects of the different schools that varied only slightly in the US News rankings. The higher-ranked school was substantively very much better in most respects (except weather and campus aesthetics, which I didn’t care about) than the lower-ranked school. We visited both, making a trip almost halfway across the country for one, and did thorough research and talked to alumni of both, and others who knew both well–even one who’s now a president of a university.”

Not sure of your point. Lots of us looked at colleges with our kids. I took my twins to 15 colleges their junior year of Hs. Rather than come away parroting USN, we found a lot of great places. Some were apples, some were oranges, some were pears but they were all great fruit. I didn’t need to consult someone else to determine that apples > oranges > pears.

People have all different goals. Some want to make $$$ the faster the better. Some want work that satisfies a creative urge. Some want a particular work life balance. Some want freedom to pursue hobbies. Some want to make a real difference in the world. Some want to do work that excites them intellectually. You’re the one who was perplexed that “what do you mean, who wouldn’t want a $320k salary job.” Well my son for one - who is a young crusader for truth and social justice. More power to him: I love youthful idealists. He’s looking to work in the political arena and he’ll make crap compared to his cousin at Morgan Stanley. (Both went to top 20 schools) That doesn’t make him “less successful”. How odd. It just means he’ll make less money, that’s all.

Seems like it boils down to this -

If your main goal in life is to make as much money as you can as fast as you possibly can so that you can quit (sorry, “retire”) before everyone else, go to an Ivy.

Clearly that is not an unusual view for Ivy grads, since 60% go into finance/law/consulting. That is fine.

But this only proves the points authors like William Deresciwicz and Frank Bruni are making. First, there should be more to college – and life – than the single-minded pursuit of affluence, prestige, and credentials. And second, for the vast majority of career paths, going to an Ivy or top-10 school is neither necessary nor possibly even desirable.

As Deresciwicz put it:

Students determine the level of classroom discussion; they shape your values and expectations, for good and ill. It’s partly because of the students that I’d warn kids away from the Ivies and their ilk. Kids at less prestigious schools are apt to be more interesting, more curious, more open, and far less entitled and competitive.

@blossom: true, but, again, my parents and I exhaustively researched both schools. The higher-ranked school was much better in basically everything that mattered to us, and the difference was large. Further, when I asked experienced people in my field of study which school was better, the near-unanimous choice was the higher-ranked school, and people gave numerous reasons, even though they surely didn’t at least all know what the schools’ respective rankings were. Even current students at the lower-ranked school said not to go there.

The lower-ranked school was significantly cheaper thanks to a scholarship, but my parents didn’t care about that. (I also have a work colleague who turned down a full ride at Columbia and went to Harvard instead; I don’t know if I’d make that choice, but people do such things.)

We didn’t just look at US News and make the decision based on seeing one higher up in the rankings. (We certainly looked at US News, and we looked at every ranking that it had published over time, to see where the trends were.) Even if we did, though, it still would have been the right answer.

People who pass up opportunities such as one to attend the school that will give the person the most benefits for what s/he wants to do in life, and instead pick a school based on weather or whatever, are welcome to do so; to each his or her own, but that’s not what I’d do.

I find it stunningly odd, @HappyAlumnus‌, that you say (and I don’t doubt you at all) that you agree that different people will have different life goals and that’s totally okay, but then you claim that everyone would absolutely be better served by going to a higher-ranked school no matter their life goals. This seems a rather huge disconnect to me, and so clearly I don’t get it—how do you reconcile those two assertions?

Exodius, That is a great article from the Atlantic.

Taking the time to take a step back to think or relax or just be alone is very important for mental health.

The rest of your post explains why I was never an English major or a major in whatever language that was. :slight_smile:

Someone mentioned upthread the point that one could even own a car dealership and make good money. My neighbor’s relative opened a car dealership when he was very young. I don’t even know if he finished college, but he has ties to the state flagship. Anyway, one turned into 2, which turned into 15, etc. He finally sold them and got into other business endeavors. When you speak to him, he says “Oh, I’m just a used car salesman.”

I just googled him out of curiosity. Says his net worth is 2.2 billion. That’s a lot of used cars.

@Pizzagirl, not so. Look at things such as job placement. There can be large differences between a #3 and a #9 school. For the third time, we researched both schools exhaustively. There can also be at least material differences in selectivity and plenty of other factors.

I’m fine with you making decisions as you want to; you’re welcome to live your life however you want. Our methods may differ, and I have no problem with yours, for you. I see no reason for you to keep denigrating people who disagree with you.

@dfbdfb, I just think it’s wise to work hard when you can, take advantage of opportunities that will lead to longer-term benefits, even at short-term cost, and store up resources while they’re available. That’s my view and I certainly don’t expect others to share it. Other people are welcome to disagree–Pizzagirl clearly does. If other people choose to live life differently than I do, that’s totally fine. If people are happy just doing a job for the sake of being happy about the job or for whatever other reason, that’s fine for them.

@4kids4colleges, please remember: the very affluent who become managing directors at Goldman Sachs–and I’m a far cry from that-- do chase prestige, affluence, etc. and work their tails off. But that stage of life doesn’t last long; many of them are done with that when they’re in their 40s, and they either shift to a lower-key finance job because they like finance, or they do something totally different. They then can spend decades saving the world or whatever they desire, if finance isn’t really their thing. (Plenty of people love finance, though, and so I don’t see why others are automatically claiming that people in finance aren’t necessarily doing the job out of inherent enjoyment or fulfillment.)

@HappyAlumnus, I have no problem at all with people chasing affluence and prestige. I chose not to, and I have taught my kids that is not the way to happiness, but I could care less what managing directors at GS do or think.

However, I absolutely have a problem with the idea that money, affluence, and prestige should be the sole (or primary) purpose, goal, or reason for getting an education. And I think it is troubling that our very “best” colleges have become so focused on, and supportive of, this incredibly narrow, limiting, and highly unoriginal world view.

@4kids4colleges, that’s fine. You are certainly welcome to your views, even though I think differently.

"please remember: the very affluent who become managing directors at Goldman Sachs–and I’m a far cry from that-- do chase prestige, affluence, etc. and work their tails off. But that stage of life doesn’t last long; many of them are done with that when they’re in their 40s, and they either shift to a lower-key finance job because they like finance, or they do something totally different. "

Goody goody gumdrops for those people who are managing directors at GS! You cite what they do as if I should care. What you’re not getting is that people who are MD’s at GS are neither heroes to worship nor devils to despise; they’re just upper middle class professionals like the rest of us. What they, collectively, do or don’t do or think or don’t think is simply not of any more importance to 99% of us than are the opinions of anybody else.

You seem very in awe of people who make a lot of money. I’ve been around people with big money enough to know - it’s just money. That’s all.