Thank you for your last post, HappyAlumnus. I find it downright chilling to read a multitude of threads from adolescents who state quite plainly that they have no intellectual curiosity, or preference for anything other than a college’s “brand,” and how that will propel them into remunerative careers. As to other discussions about career paths, I have been able to take a very casual one because my father earned enough in a local private practice to secure futures for his six children. After World War II, he decided to settle in his hometown instead of accepting an offer from a large law firm. He graduated from Harvard (Law School and College). It was a very different time, however. There is no way that a mediocre student now could be admitted to Harvard at sixteen. All but 1500 (?) of millions of graduating students here and abroad will have to play the hands they’re dealt. I am no statistician, but I know that there are also millions of possible hands to play.
@woogzmama, thanks as well for you post. My take on those 13 year olds who ask what extracurriculars, etc. are needed to get into Harvard is that their approaches just aren’t going to work. Before college, find your passions and work as hard as you can, and don’t worry about a particular school; that’ll work much better to obtain a good outcome.
Furrydog, although there are positives in the article, overall the article is too depressing for me.
I always wanted to live in reality. There was a story of an 80 year old woman surrounded by her family on her birthday.
She told her family she only wanted one present. The present was she only wanted to hear positive news from now on. No more negative news.
I am not 80 but I understand this sentiment.
A positive note… my daughter has been tumor free for almost 2 years. The surgeon did a great job. 
I looked at the surgeon’s work. I could see how the surgeon cut through the brain to get to the tumor. Incredible.
If we have to talk about who is elite, my thinking is a neurosurgeon ranks higher than a lawyer.
@dstark, I would certainly agree with your last line, and I’m a lawyer. Anyone can go to law school, somewhere.
Very glad to hear about your daughter being tumor free!
@HappyAlumnus,
Thanks.
Pain lays things bare.
@HappyAlumnus @pizzagirl doesn’t hate people who are in finance she believes that there are other people out there that are just as important. I would rather be friends with some one who works with poor people in India than a derivative trader on Wall Street I am sure you see it the opposite way
Your post 966 is typical of myopic thinking. on the us news list of best Law firms I didn’t see any criminal law firms or family law firms or ch 13 firms or unlawful detainer firms or employment law worker firms. They may not be important in your world but they are important to the other 99 per cent of the people out there. I also looked at the vault survey. It was done by associates at large law firms in my book that is inadmissible evidence whose prejudicial impact outweighs its probative value!!! It appears that you have been in a bubble
@Iglooo, I should have added SES to generation and geography as well.
SES may be even more important than generation and geography, in fact, when it comes to knowledge of LACs.
For example, here is the matriculation list for John Burroughs (probably the private prep HS in StL with the highest achieving student body; I’d say mostly upper-middle-class or above):
http://jburroughs.org/academics/college-counseling/matriculation
Here’s the matriculation list for Northside Prep (probably the public magnet in Chicago city with the highest achieving student body; definitely not mostly upper-middle-class or above):
http://www.nscollegeprep.cps.k12.il.us/ncphs/ss/counseling/docs/Matriculation2013.pdf
22 out of 98 from Burroughs heading to LACs outside the Midwest.
6 out of 250 from Northside Prep heading to LACs outside the Midwest.
This in an era when privates of all stripes (including LACs) have stepped up recruitment of minorities, the disadvantaged, first-generation college goers, and expanded the geographic reach of their recruitment.
Northside Prep didn’t exist in the '80’s, but it’s a good bet that kids who were good enough to have gotten in to Whitney Young back then (at that time the Chicago magnet with the highest achieving student body) would have exhibited similar knowledge of and desire for LACs as Northside kids now do (especially outside the region) while Burroughs probably was sending the same proportion of kids to LACs in other regions as they do now.
@florida26, no, I have no need or interest in being friends with a derivative trader, so your statement is not correct. I’ve posted many times that I didn’t care for my experiences in finance.
My post 966 is not just my words; it’s a whole list of links to various ratings by OTHERS, including 17,000 lawyers who ranked law firms. Those ratings are not “my world”, they’re the world of lawyers in general, including the American Bar Association, which provided one of the rankings.
Again, please provide a third-party source that supports your claims that criminal defense lawyers and plaintiffs’ lawyers are the most “prestigious” No poll, survey or objective data that I have seen supports those claims.
You didn’t see “unlawful detainer” law firms on those lists because perhaps others don’t see them as prestigious.
What is SES? I am not good at acronyms.
@HappyAlumnus, imo self-exploration is as important in college as in HS. Kids are finally on their own and they are still growing rapidly. Prestige can get in the way. In HS what should I do to get in. In college, it’s now I am a harvard or mit, I should act the part which may be more detrimental for growth.
I was a derivatives trader. I do very little trading now.
I know people like to define themselves by the jobs they have. I don’t. A derivatives trader was an occupation. It is not who I am.
@PurpleTitan: Good point about SES—I grew up in a family that was hanging on to middle class status by its fingernails, so perhaps it’s utterly unsurprising that (especially rural) LACs, no matter how prestigious, were invisible to me.
@HappyAlumnus: I don’t think anyone’s contesting the claim that it makes a difference where someone goes to law school and gets their JD (or business school and gets their MBA, for that matter). Why do you keep coming back to that?
@Iglooo, SES= socio-economic status.
The really strange thing is to be in your 40s (or whatever) and STILL be obsessed with where you went to law school and every list of rankings known to man - best law school, best undergrad, best lawyers, Davos, Forbes most powerful or rich or whatever men, best finance feeder schools, etc etc. Seriously? Who thinks about these things 20 years after graduating law school?
Once you are in your 40s no one cares where you went to law school. If you have been practicing, your work speaks for itself. By now, others with degrees from “lesser” schools may well have accomplished more, made more money, have more power. HLS got you in the door, but so what. Some of the very best, smartest lawyers in my firm went to not-top-20 law schools, but they have proven themselves and no one would question their credentials.
Also, I can’t think of one lawyer in my firm who retired before their late 60s. Many are in their 70s, some worked into their 80s. They could have retired many millions ago, but when you actually love your job, why?
@happyalumnus at best your alleged evidence is faulty. 99 per cent of the people need UD lawyers or family law attorneys or collection law defense attorneys or criminal defense attorneys or plaintiffs accident attorneys etc Go spend some time at the trial courts in your state You will learn a lot !!! Those 17000 lawyers were associates at big law firms What does that prove? That proves associates at big law firms like big law firms. It doesnt prove what you are trying to prove and in your jargon would be subject to a MIL in court Jerry Spence is my hero Your hero is a partner that makes 2 million dollars a year at a big law firm working for price fixers or polluters or who help large corporations from payiing their fair share of taxes. Our value systems are just different
@florida26, of course people often need things such as family law attorneys.
You stated that criminal defense and plaintiffs’ lawyers are more prestigious than others. If that’s the case, you should be able to find some third party support for that. Until you do, I stand behind the links that I posted, all of which were what came up when I Googled “most prestigious lawyer”. Further, until you do, your assertions, without basis, are just that: your own assertions, without any basis.
In addition, at least one of the links was from the American Bar Association. If that isn’t a valid indicator of things about the US legal profession, nothing is.
In addition, you should note that most partners in big law firms who you allege are “working for price fixers or polluters or…help large corporations from paying their fair share of taxes” are Democrats and generally are in favor of larger and more activist government, including with respect to Wall Street and corporate malfeasance. Partners in big law firms are certainly not my “hero”, so your statement is incorrect. They are regarded by many in the legal profession as having prestigious jobs, however.
4kids4colleges, plenty of people are focused on status and rankings. If they weren’t, why would Forbes magazine publish them?
I get that kids entering college and their parents are focused on rankings. I mean, I don’t buy it, but I get it.
I don’t get why people 20 years into their careers care about these things. At this point, most of us know we are not and never will be on the Forbes Most Whatever or Davos lists, and could care less. And the whole law firm ranking thing is just a big love fest among BigLaw participants and admirers.
It is a fact that many plaintiffs’ lawyers make way more money than the lawyers on these lists. But I suppose that work is not “prestigious” enough so not worth ranking. Whatever. I’ve dealt with these corporate defense firms my entire career - their briefs are no better than the ones we write.
I suppose if you’ve spent your whole life jumping through the next hoop, your identity inevitably is seriously intertwined with these ridiculous, endless lists.
@4kids4colleges, yes, some plaintiffs’ lawyers make fortunes, and far more than those who have “prestigious” jobs, such as Supreme Court justices or Wachtel partners. Agreed.
You may not get why people 20 years (or more) into their careers are focused on rankings and lists, but so what if they are? Being on one of those lists can mean tremendous career benefits and other business opportunities.
To each his or her own. Some people, such as @florida26, clearly do not care about conventional measures of success. They are welcome to live how they want and to have their own views. Others do care, and they are also welcome to life how they want and to have their own views, are they not?
Furrydog,
That Stanford physician was a classmate of my son’s girlfriends sister (did you follow that? Confusing I know-- My sons future sis in law). She had that article on her facebook page. So sad. What a loss.
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A positive note... my daughter has been tumor free for almost 2 years. The surgeon did a great job.
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I am so glad to hear that - it puts the whole thread in perspective.
jym626 - yes - what a loss - I think the world is a dimmer place.