<p>ICargirl, I was going to say just that in my next post. You beat me to it!</p>
<p>That’s only slightly above average for senior faculty at my community college.</p>
<p>My mom had kids involved in gang activity in her classroom last year. She teaches third grade.</p>
<p>Well let me tell you about some recent days that my wife has had at her elementary school. Friday, a 7 year old boy was sent to the office and told my wife: " I did your mother and she liked it." Thursday, a father was called in to get his kid because he was being suspended. The father asked the boy to show him the men’s room. When they got back, the boy was crying because he had been whipped with his father’s belt. My wife had to call the police on that one. Last week, 3rd graders went on a field trip and two of the students were caught stealing at the gift shop which by school rules is grounds for a suspension. My wife calls up one of the mothers and the response was: “Why is he being suspended? What’s the big deal?” The sexual stuff is very widespread and points to significant sexual abuse in a lot of families. Last year there was the situation of a mother who had 4 girls with 4 different fathers and decided that she didn’t like one of the girls anymore, didn’t want her, took off and just left her at the school - a DCF case. There are DCF cases almost everyday. Please tell me how our wonderful 125k teachers would teach these students? Please stop being blind to the real world.</p>
<p>“Really, how many people do you think would go through all of the education requirements, public scrutiny and historically mediocre pay (compared with other equally trained and educated professionals) to be teachers if they didn’t have some job security and benefits? Even if they felt “the calling”?”</p>
<p>Let’s see–182-183 working days a year, lifetime job after 3 year probationary period, medical insurance, automatic step raises, retirement fund with matching contributions, accumulated sick days from year to year, retirement incentive, and a great retirement plan with benefits. </p>
<p>I understand that it’s not an easy job (especially for the teachers that are in it for the students). I don’t think anyone here is denying the difficulty of the job. What many of us would like to see is a complete overhaul of the tenure policy. The teacher’s union is all too powerful.</p>
<p>BCEagle, As much as I agree with you on the other point, most homeschooling parents do not “do just fine,” at least in my area. (I’ve worked extensively in homeschool supervision and consulting.) Most of those who choose this route have no idea what they’re doing. They don’t know how to instruct, how to introduce, how to pace, how to assess, how to choose curriculum that’s developmentally appropriate, and more. </p>
<p>Now, I will say that where the school system has failed to provide much inspiration, motivation, or success, the above homeschool parent does not necessarily do any harm, even while strides can be minimal. Comparatively, that’s a sad commentary on institutional education. It’s just that, let’s not misrepresent the ability of an untrained parent, overall, to provide a superior substitute to the institution. In my experience, success is spotty.</p>
<p>The population where homeschooling has most consistently succeeded is for the intellectually gifted.</p>
<p>I think way more top students would be interested in teaching if it paid 125,000 dollars a year. It’s not about the money, either. Advanced knowledge, or attempts at infusing gifts at a level appreciable to kids – is not appreciated to school administrations. To become a schoolteachers, unlike becoming a professor, means to give up one’s intellectual ambition and interests of studying anything else. An ideal education system would funnel at least a good fraction the top performing kids with all their brilliance to the teaching profession, to sustain advancement – but this doesn’t happen. </p>
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<p>My parents have been absent for the vast majority of my intellectual development.</p>
<p>Had I grown up in the Singaporean education system rather than a New England one, the quality of me as a student would probably differ drastically.</p>
<p>What about the model of expanding classroom size but using (more lowly-paid) assistants to help with discipline and monitoring the class, etc.? Singapore (and other Asian systems) manage to teach effectively at an elementary level with 40+ students per class. And boy did I feel very close-knit, in part because of the effective way our teachers wove threads of kinship among us.</p>
<p>Increase class size but increase teacher pay – seems like a sustainable model. Entry-level teachers (or undergrad / grad interns) could take up assistant positions.</p>
<p>If not for the right teachers who came along in my life, I’d probably have lost the motivation to learn (because of a lack of a good home situation), and rather than attending college, I’d probably currently be in organised crime or something.</p>
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<p>Exactly. This is my point. These are the benefits I was referring to. Note, please, DocT’s last post. Those are just some of the realities of the job. And it isn’t a guaranteed lifetime job after three years. See my previous posts.</p>
<p>And we do this for a (national average, per AFT, 2007) income of $51,009. Note, please, that the national average income of people with a master’s degree (and many of us have higher education than this) is $75,430 (US Department of Commerce, 2006). </p>
<p>Ask your local school administrator if you could observe a teacher for a week. You may change your mind.</p>
<p>I think respect for a profession matters and for our society that is tied to money. I don’t want to hijack the thread to Teach for America but there is a reason that they get thousands of thousands of applicants for a very difficult job. Leaving out for a moment the desire to do good, etc., there is a respect factor and there is an assurance that being in TFA will not hurt a person’s chances at other opportunities and if you know who these applicant are, then you understand how brilliant the recruitment process is. Essentially, it has become a highly-respected post-grad choice. For adults, salary is tied to feeling that society respects what one does. What teachers do is important and I think a lot of them would probably do an even better job if they felt they were accorded respect by the salary they are paid. No matter how altruistic one might be, salary is tied to respect for a profession in our society. What galls me in our school district is how really top-notch teachers often leave the classroom for a non-teaching job in the district because it pays more and they have real financial considerations. What does it say when a school district values the position of a bureaucrat more than the position of a really gifted teacher?</p>
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<p>The studies that I’ve seen indicate that they do. Do you have any
studies indicating that they don’t? It can be a lot of work figuring
everything out on your own but it is so much easier to do today
compared to when we started out. There is a lot of experimentation
in the homeschooling community and what you consider a negative,
others may consider a positive.</p>
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<p>I guess we run in different circles.</p>
<p>There are national as well as state homeschooling email lists and
online forums. If a homeschooler needs help, they can ask for it at a
state or national level. I suppose that there are some that don’t ask
for help but state homeschooling groups do try to help out those
starting out. A very common situation is a parent that’s very unhappy
with their school district. The unhappiness can range from
disagreement with curriculum to child abuse by school personnel.</p>
<p>The parents are often emotional about the decision to homeschool and
don’t consider the things that a homeschooler has to go through to run
a program. Other homeschoolers typically ask if they are sure that
they want to homeschool as parents do have to count the cost. Then
parents have to get up to speed on their local laws, write up a plan,
a means of evaluation. In some states, a parent has to have some kind
of certification so the parent may have to address that issue. This is
the kind of situation where parents have the most difficulty. Those
that are plugged into homeschooling groups at the state and national
levels are usually better educated on homeschooling.</p>
<p>The latest statistics on homeschooling shows that 5 or 6 percent of
college educated parents are homeschooling and that it’s becoming
far more popular with affluent families, especially those with girls.</p>
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<p>I’ve seen kids that couldn’t read at 10 go on to great
accomplishments. And students that weren’t particularly good at math
in their elementary grades do well in state contests. There’s a lot of
flexibility to homeschooling that can enable a child to learn a
subject when it works best for them.</p>
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<p>Do you give them no credit for your genetic gifts? South Portland isn’t exactly a ghetto. Who provided your support there?</p>
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<p>Well, that’s stating the obvious.</p>
<p>“What about the model of expanding classroom size but using (more lowly-paid) assistants to help with discipline and monitoring the class, etc.? Singapore (and other Asian systems) manage to teach effectively at an elementary level with 40+ students per class. And boy did I feel very close-knit, in part because of the effective way our teachers wove threads of kinship among us.”</p>
<p>Those nations have parental support on their side and Singapore is a place where teachers are expected. At least that was the case the last time I was there in the 1990s.</p>
<p>“Increase class size but increase teacher pay – seems like a sustainable model. Entry-level teachers (or undergrad / grad interns) could take up assistant positions.”</p>
<p>Class size is a standard quality metric in the US. It’s an untouchable area. What you propose may work out well in some districts but it would be unacceptable in most. In NH, there a classroom size number that, if exceeded for some period of time, can result in some pretty negative consequences from the state. I don’t recall what the punishment is but it might be that the school loses accreditation.</p>
<p>I spent 10 years as a TA in the public school system. I know what a day in the life of a teacher is like. I never said it was easy. I still stand by my opinion that tenure needs to go. </p>
<p>$51,000 for working 183 days a year. Plus benefits, tenure, automatic pay raise steps yearly, and top medical insurance benefits plans. Their salaries increase dramatically over time. We have many teachers in our school system earning $100,000 plus for 183 days of work. </p>
<p>There is so much deadwood in the system and will continue to be there until they get their retirement incentive and retire. I’ve seen first hand how politics run the districts. I’ve seen older, lazier, obnoxious teachers band together and harass younger teachers (probationary positions-untenured) who are rising stars to the point where they leave the position before the probationary position ends. I’ve seen these same rising stars endure this type of crap and stick it out for the probationary period just to be denied tenure because the bully teachers (deadwood and can recite their contract verbatum line by line) don’t want new ideas and energy brought into the building. Why?–because then they would have to step up and compete against the rising star. I’ve seen the building teacher union representatives use their power to manipulate the administration. </p>
<p>Rarely, do the districts challenge any teacher that they want to fire because of the cost to the district in enormous legal costs trying to fight the teacher’s union as well as any bad press that the teacher’s union decides to put into the local papers. Rarely are tenured teachers fired because of the protection that the union gives them. They usually just pass the crappy teacher from grade level to grade level, building to building until the teacher decides to quit or stay on for their retirement payoff.</p>
<p>Yes, mimk6, I can’t count how many excellent teachers I know who have left teaching (many for school administration, which is a 12 month position) because of the higher pay. </p>
<p>Another reality: even in this economy, there are teacher shortages. There is huge attrition in the profession in the first three years. Even with our “perks”.</p>
<p>If our tenure benefits are so extraordinary, why doesn’t everyone want to become a teacher?
Why wouldn’t we want to encourage excellent teachers to teach our kids?</p>
<p>Every profession has perks that those outside of the profession believe to be uncalled for. Wall Street bonus, cops retire at 20 years, etc etc. If the other job is better than yours switch.</p>
<p>“If the other job is better than yours switch.”</p>
<p>The jobs that you mentioned are public - yes, even the Wall Street jobs with our bailout money. If you take a public job, then your job is subject to public scrutiny. As taxpayers, we have a say in public salaries. It may be a very small say but it is a say.</p>
<p>I’m a public school teacher, and I have to agree with nysmile. I’m fine with getting rid of tenure for K-12 teachers. There are some teachers I’ve worked with who have allowed the protection of tenure to not only cloud their judgement but also turned them into monsters. They are difficult to work with or lazy or actively undermine any plans for innovation (originating either from the top or from the ranks). Some are all three at the same time (amazing how they can be so lazy at their “craft” but so fired up when it comes to smacking down a good idea that threatens their routine). Teachers would get more respect if they were able to be let go from a district rather than just shuffled around or allowed to fester in one school. </p>
<p>After getting rid of tenure, the districts should double the salaries and lengthen the school day and year. That would fix some of the quality issues in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>I agree with pageturner that there is a lot of bashing on tenure. Tenured teachers can be and are fired, so having tenure does not give a person a free pass to do what they want. An AP Administration who documents, documents, documents (I work with one) can get a tenured teacher out.</p>
<p>Teachers that teach in NYC charter schools are not part of the UFT, they do not have a pension plan, they do not have to be given benefits and they do not have job security (one of the main 2 benefits of being in the UFT). While it is nice that you can pay them $125k, if they are not meeting whatever standards the charter school sets up at the end of the year they will be unemployed.</p>
<p>regarding tenure:</p>
<p>In the NYC Doe, you must work 3 years before you get tenure. If you are U rated in any of the first 3 years, yoru probationary time can be extended or you can be let go.</p>
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<p>That is not necessarily true. In most cases when a school is excessing (in NYC we have a no layoff clause- so you will be excessed, meaning you are no longer appointed to a pecific school) it is done by license area. The least senior person by license is usually the first to go. I personally know 2 staff members at my school that were excessed last week. One has 35 years in the system, the other has over 20 years. The principal decided that their license area was no longer needed and they will not be on the roster next year (the principal also cut over 230k from her labor line- which is probably more of the reason they were excessed).</p>
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<p>There are 2 separate issues here. This also sounds like more of an admininstration problem than a tenure problem (and yes, there are some very lazy administrators in the DOE).</p>
<p>If the teacher stole money, tenure or no tenure, there was nothing stopping the administration from calling the police, having them arrested and pressing charges. As far as the employment aspect, the teacher would have been taken out of the school, placed in the “rubber room” pending outcome of the criminal charges.</p>
<p>Top students and people from the best schools do not automatically translate into being good teachers.</p>
<p>sybbie, I agree with some of what you wrote. My mother was a principal for years, and she did manage to get rid of a couple tenured teachers (after years of documentation) for egregious job performance issues. But she has the determination of a badger and having entered the profession later in life, didn’t care about making or keeping friends. Most young new administrators are placed at the worst schools and are made mincemeat by small cores of grouchy veteran teachers. </p>
<p>The worst effects of tenure develop slowly, subtly over time. There is something that happens to every employee when they know they “can’t be fired.” It goes beyond just the ordinary inertia that develops when one gets comfortable with a job. A passive-aggressive mindset tends to develop in many teachers. The employee who is “guaranteed” his job if he meets minimal expectations (i.e. shows up on time, doesn’t abuse the clients, turns in reports – grades, etc… – on time…) over years often turns into an employee who will not do more than that. There is no personal incentive to do more – working harder doesn’t translate into higher profits for the employee – and there is no institutional incentive either; the teacher can’t work harder to earn more for the school. </p>
<p>The work effort and creativity and good-naturedness of the new untenured teachers often is in stark contrast to those who have enjoyed job protection for even a few years. Obviously, not every tenured teacher allows himself to slip into this mindset; there are some who remain consummate professionals and who remember who they are really serving and why they should constantly innovate and change to meet new demands from society. But, as has been said, it is a difficult, demanding job, and it is human nature to look for short cuts to make it easier. It is also human nature to resist change, especially change that is forced upon one. </p>
<p>Take away the security blanket of tenure, and teachers would have to constantly self-reflect on their own worth to the institution and the clients they are serving. There would be an incentive for this: to keep your job! This self-reflection alone would lead to higher productivity and innovation and make it much easier for real reform to take place.</p>
<p>But, absent the job protection, you would have to pay folks a lot more money to attract educated, quality employees. And this will likely never happen!</p>