Soda consumption in low-income households

The US has SNAP because Congress decided it is not acceptable, in a nation with so much food, for families to go hungry. And also because Congressmen from cities and rural areas made a deal in the 1960s - you support food stamps and I’ll support farm subsidies, and we will put both in the same bill so neither of us can back out of the deal. Always lots of motives behind the way things are.

But then you look at the results of what you did, and make adjustments depending on how well it accomplishes the goals you had when you started the program. And if the result is that people are buying and eating junk that leads to obesity, it seems reasonable to go back and look at what kinds of remedies there are for that situation. Maybe it’s relaxing regulations to allow more small businesses to operate - food delivery, food trucks, etc. Maybe it’s education on nutrition and cooking. Maybe it’s taxing soda. I don’t know all the answers, but pretending a problem is not a problem because poor people are beyond reproach is not one of them.

When I started my post about whether people are viewed as being GIVEN money taken from taxpayers vs. receiving deserved compensation, I was really thinking along the lines of “should we as a capitalistic society (but a regulated one) increase the minimum wage or rethink the hierarchy of salaries with regard to the actual value of the work people do.” If people tend to answer "yes " to that question, they/we may view the supplements as just a deserved and necessary stopgap band-aid until those changes in wages (EARNED wages) can be implemented. Again, not talking about legalities, just mindsets that lead us to come to our own, personal conclusions about this. And I know economies are dynamic…changes in minimum wage can cause inflation, etc. etc. Don’t have the answers, just asking the questions.

We all have read how income inequality has skyrocketed in the last decades. Someone IS getting the lion’s share. I’m all for hard work, pulling up, getting education, training, whatever it takes, not sabotaging opportunities with bad habits. But I still wonder, does that college degree from a fine school really make someone SO much more deserving of an adequate income than a hard-working gruntworker …don’t mean that term disparagingly…(and I’m not talking about you, personally, @younghoss, I’m talking every bit as much about me…should MY family be taxed more.)

Anyway, I believe relatively little of our tax dollars goes to food assistance programs…so much more to military, education, infrastructure and a zillion other things.

Well, we’re headed to a political discussion. Even though it’s policy and not personal, it will be shut down on this forum. You might want to look at the federal budget, and your state budget, and see where the money really goes.

And the more we raise wages, the more companies automate the workplace to eliminate low skilled employees, who don’t produce enough revenue to justify their wages. If it were easy, we’d have solved it by now. But consider that spending on the military, infrastructure, and education does go largely to workers who make good wages, making direct food support less necessary.

…which leads me to think…our tax dollars are paying school teachers, road construction crews, soldiers, the list is endless. Are we being forcibly robbed to pay these people? If you think not, then its seems logical to think that food supplements are actually allowing small businesspeople to stay in business… the ones who cannot afford to pay their lowest-level workers any more…but supplements to these workers (so that they can survive, barely) allows the businesses to chug along without going bankrupt…so in a sense, taxpayers would indeed, be paying the rest of wages of these workers that the business owners cannot.

I am not an economist…I never took an economics class in my life. Would like to hear (sincerely) if there are big holes in this argument. I am curious, that’s all.

Sorry…not trying to be political, per se…on my part it is the exercise of stretching the brain to view things from different perspectives …each perspective with its internal consistencies/inconsistencies. But I’ll be happy to refrain.

Just saw this posted by the Southern Poverty Law Center. It is worth reading in its entirety as it points out important fallacies in the original linked article. Sounds like the articles original premise and headline was definitely clickbait.

https://talkpoverty.org/2017/01/16/shopping-cart-food-stamp-household-not-new-york-times-reported/

"A November 2016 study by the U.S. Department of Agriculture examined the food shopping patterns of American households who currently receive nutrition assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) compared with those not receiving aid. Its central finding? “There were no major differences in the expenditure patterns of SNAP and non-SNAP households, no matter how the data were categorized.”

But you wouldn’t know that from reading the New York Times’ front-page story last Friday."

"The actual conclusion of USDA’s study—“both food stamp recipients and other households generally made similar purchases”—is buried 15 paragraphs down from the sensationalized headline. The article did not initially link to or even name the study.

Soon after publication, several experts took to social media to highlight the study’s actual findings.

Joe Soss, a sociologist at the University of Minnesota, pointed out that the article’s main argument—that households receiving nutrition assistance spend vastly greater shares of their grocery budgets on soda compared with other households—is directly contradicted by the report’s actual finding. The difference was incredibly slight: 5 percent versus 4 percent of a household’s grocery spending. The Times also reported that a misleadingly high 9 percent of budgets were dedicated to soda, because the article conflated soda with “sweetened drinks” (which includes many juices).

Philip Cohen, a University of Maryland sociologist, noted that the article failed to mention the food item where USDA found the biggest difference in spending: baby food. (Shame on those struggling households for feeding their children.)

Beyond the article’s inaccuracies, there is a broader problem with this kind of reporting. It reinforces an “us versus them” narrative—as though “the poor” are a stagnant class of Americans permanently dependent on aid programs. The New York Times’ own past reporting has shown that this simply isn’t the case. Research by Mark Rank, which the paper featured in 2013, shows that four in five Americans will face at least a year of significant economic insecurity during their working years. And analysis by the White House Council on Economic Advisers finds that 70 percent of Americans will turn to a means-tested safety net program such as nutrition assistance at some point during their lives.

Most families who turn to income supports like SNAP do so only temporarily, and often during periods of crisis (such as loss of a job or a medical emergency). Since today’s low wages make it nearly impossible for families to save for these emergencies, which all of us inevitably face, benefits like SNAP provide critical support. These programs help put them back on their feet—and once they are, they stop their participation

Americans’ high level of sugar consumption, and the related health consequences, is an important discussion to have. But using a false and divisive narrative that suggests that such consumption is chiefly the purview of people who need to turn to nutrition assistance plays directly into harmful stereotypes, and risks undermining a critical program that protects nearly 5 million Americans from poverty each year. These kinds of narratives have long served as the backbone of efforts to cut safety net benefits, like SNAP, which not only help struggling families in the short-term but also boost economic mobility in the long-term, while stabilizing the overall economy."

Is this a good thing? Or would you expect people experiencing temporary or long term policy to skew more towards the basics and less towards the treats? I was raised needs first, then wants. Not to never have a piece of candy, but to align consumption with resources.

Well. There you go. Thanks, @doschicos.

@doschicos I read the same article (reprinted in my local paper), and did not see any false narrative. If anything, after reading the article, I was dismayed about the amount of soda that ALL American households seem to be buying these days. Also, how does the baby food part fit in with the false narrative?

Figures THAT is what you choose to focus on from the article, @MomofJandL.

Did you miss this part? “The Times also reported that a misleadingly high 9 percent of budgets were dedicated to soda, because the article conflated soda with “sweetened drinks” (which includes many juices).”

Where do you draw the line and who is going to be the one to draw it? So, no soda. Fine. What about juice? What kind of juice? How about crackers and cereal? One could go on. It’s still a drop in the bucket relative to other government spending and doesn’t deserve a holier than thou stance IMO.

I’ve always viewed paying taxes as a privilege, a privilege for living in a land of opportunity and privilege. Of course we all want it spend wisely but in the pecking order of correcting government spending, SNAP wouldn’t be on my top 50 list.

@khmama Of course the baby food angle fits in. It wasn’t discussed at all. The focus was on soda. The narrative is driven by what the article focuses on. It also wasn’t an article on how Americans - of all stripes - drink too much soda overall and the dangers of doing so. The article was slanted.

@doschicos I don’t see it as a “holier than thou” stance. The whole program is called the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. While we can debate the nutritional value of juice, there is ample evidence by tons of sources that clearly indicate that soda has no nutritional value. I am all for giving those who need nutritional assistance all that they need so that they can be healthy and not starve, but soda is not a part of that need.

There is juice from fruit, and then their is colored sugar water. Think those little plastic barrels with foil tab tops. Sometimes 10 or 12/$1.

Even among real juice, there is apple juice, and then there is OJ. The better for you the juice, typically the more expensive it is.

Thank you @doschicos !

Sending me your addresses. I’ll mail you each $1 check for your portion of your taxes that went to buying soda for people on SNAP. :smiley:

@doschicos Well I guess we both walked away from reading the article with different viewpoints. I didn’t find it slanted in the way that you did.

I still am not understanding the baby food angle. Could you please elaborate?

The article could have been written from all different angles. It could have been written stating how much more of a family on SNAP’s budget went to buying baby food. How a greater proportion of families on SNAP have very young children than the overall population and how important SNAP is in ensuring those young kids get off to a healthy nutritional start in life which will have benefits down the road in terms of learning, a healthy population, reduced healthcare costs, etc. It could have been written in a VERY different way where readers would have walked away from reading the article thinking, “hmmm, THANK GOD there is SNAP there for helping these struggling young families” and people could have felt good about their tax dollars at work.

Instead, it focused on SODA and showed pictures of soda and we have posters here lamenting how their hard earned dollars are being spent instead of looking at areas where many, many more tax dollars are spent.

@doschicos I see a larger picture of just the simple process of the government paying for soda with SNAP. I see the ramifications of our government subsidizing a substance that has been scientifically proven to cause health problems. It isn’t just the cost of the soda - it’s the HUGE cost of health care that is related to the consumption of soda.

I don’t disagree with those thoughts, @khmama, and for such reasons I think our government should address our food security and safety and policy in ways that focus more on the long term health needs of our populace. To me, that is way above and beyond focusing on SNAP, though, and it should focus on much broader policies affecting ALL Americans.

Once again, it’s all nice and good to talk about limiting what SNAP recipients can buy with their money, but for many, limiting it will leave them with virtually nothing to buy. Why? Because they don’t have grocery stores like I can almost guarantee 99.9% of people on this forum have. They have to buy at convenience stores because that’s what’s open and around. They sell junk food.

How about instead of limiting SNAP, we do something about food deserts? Maybe that way, people won’t starve when you start limiting what food they can buy.

This is pretty cool

https://www.philabundance.org/philabundance-takes-on-food-desert-in-chester-penn/

"…In Chester, the plan to establish a new grocery is nonprofit from start to finish. The nonprofit emergency food aid group Philabundance has purchased a vacant building that hosted the last supermarket in the city before it closed in 2001. Philabundance plans to open a 13,000 square foot “Fare and Square” grocery there in about a year’s time.

The president of Philabundance, Bill Clark, believes it will be the first nonprofit supermarket developed and operated by a food aid group. The project is anticipated to cost about $4.5 million, toward which the nonprofit has raised $2.2 million in government and private revenues. The biggest of the contributions was a $1 million grant from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

This is a project worth watching as a potential model not just for addressing food deserts, but for moving nonprofit emergency food programs into serving entire communities…"