<p>I know a guy who was a total loss in HS, went to the local community college, and ended up with a PhD in physics from Stanford.</p>
<p>I also live in one of those areas where there is an Ivy/private school obsession - and our quality flagship state school is mostly frowned upon. Drive 40 miles out and it’s a different story - but where you live can have a significant impact on expectations and the pressure you feel from people around you.
So I do sympathize. My s didn’t get into the one Ivy he applied to but did turn down some top privates to go to his state school honors college. No bragging rights there…at least not in this area. Sometimes, I too wonder if he undershot, but then I realize I’m be far too influenced by this crazy bubble I live in. He’s happy, has great opportunities to learn and is doing well - and that’s what really counts. Be proud and optimistic about the future! Don’t fall into the prestige trap - the posters on this board know what they’re talking about.
And I agree that falling down and fighting back can develop character and strength. More than what you’ll see from a standard Ivy grad. Good luck to you and your son - I have a feeling all will work out well.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse and toneranger - thanks, you totally get where I was coming from, maybe because you have been there too. I would not have been as concerned if he dropped Ivy for another school - it is just that he reached so low. Probably due to insecurity/lack of confidence caused by his tough experience at the Ivy and depression. Also I think that he needed the security of being close to home and his new therapist in order to heal. Thanks r2dtoo for your posts and for the encouragement. I totally got the points you were making and hope that all hiring managers would be as open minded as you are. My son met some really shallow people at the Ivy and became very disillusioned by the excess and disrespect that he saw among some of the students. But he did interact with some really bright kids there too, and loved that aspect of it - it was the cut throat atmosphere of the engineering school that he could not cope with and his GPA slid low enough to allow him to stay in engineering, but too low to allow him to transfer to another major. A very disappointing catch-22 that he ran up against. So he thinks that high A’s at the state school will bring up the GPA enough to make his transcript worthy of an employer’s/grad school’s attention. I’m not convinced that it will work because in my mind they will look at the caliber of the college not just the grades, but I can’t burden him with that worry and shake his confidence further. You have taken the time to post some very good points in this thread. They are very thought provoking and offer viewpoints that every parent needs to consider.</p>
<p>Frandg- my heart goes out to all of you. When I read your last post about the GPA I had to laugh; a relative’s kid was injured very badly during an athletic competition. He was throwing his weight around making calls and having a hissy fit to try and get a plastic surgeon to meet the ambulance at the ER- it was apparently very important to his daughter’s future that her face be perfect… until the coach said very directly, “you go worry about the plastic surgeon. I’m going to help the paramedics stabilize your daughter so she makes it through the weekend.”</p>
<p>Horrible at the time… but funny in retrospect. I think your son has wisely recognized that it’s his job to “make it through the weekend” right now… and you’re worrying about the plastic surgeon.</p>
<p>There are all sorts of successful people who have taken different circuitous routes to where they are. There are heads of movie studios who attended 8 different colleges…and never quite got that BA. There are department chairs at world-renowned med schools who flunked Organic chemistry (and some more than once.) And of course there are all those graduates of Brown and Yale who also end up at Silver Hill and Bellevue and McLean’s whose demons take hold of them and never quite let go.</p>
<p>Your son is really an inspiring young man. I wouldn’t worry too much about his future quite yet. Let him have another semester of accomplishment and emotional stability and then you can all brainstorm about his options down the road.</p>
<p>I’m wondering what I can add to this conversation.</p>
<p>First, student dissatisfaction at top schools is a lot higher than the admissions office might have you thinking. I’m in the position to know a lot of current students and a lot of alumni from various top schools, and a lot disliked their school for a variety of reasons. The sort of unawareness, inwardness, silver-spoon-ness was only one part of the equation. The other parts include financial strain, social isolation, family issues, self-esteem issues. </p>
<p>When I visited schools, there were a lot of elite schools where I felt it would be hard for me to be me, so I think I understand your son’s position, in part. I stayed at my state school for two days and felt that the state school would have been a much better choice for me than most top schools. (I found it funny when I talked to current students from my high school and they expressed dissatisfaction with the fact that few had buckets of discretionary income and that most of the student body walked around in sweatshirts and jeans. My perfect school!)</p>
<p>Many of my family members have been somehow allergic to elite schools. I know many elite school dropouts, some who finish their degree elsewhere and some who never finish, and it seems like everybody still has the skills they were born with.</p>
<p>I’m sorry to hear about your son, wouldn’t it have been possible for him to have changed his major to something easier? He could also taken a break in between college to relax and then come back to the Ivy to finish his degree. All the best to your son.</p>
<p>^^
unalove, another great post! you add so much to these conversations.</p>
<p>I would encourage your S to visit his college’s co-op/internship office. Engineering students have TONS of co-op opportunities, and working in a job might be just the thing to get your S’s confidence back up. A young man I know went to a UMich Engineering & really struggled. He was really down on himself. He landed a co-op job, and the company was thrilled with him & his work ethic. They ended up offering to pay for the remainder of his tuition, summer co-op the rest of his undergrad, & offered him a job at graduation if he wants (not necessary for the tuition, though). Talk about a boost to his confidence! In engineering, being able to do the job is a big deal.</p>
<p>I agree. Have a look at who recruits at the new school.</p>
<p>I recently heard about a fellow who got an engineering degree at Dartmouth and spent 6 months trying to get a job outside of the Boston area. If he’d gone to school local to where he wanted to settle, he’d have been working from graduation on.</p>
<p>The more prestigious schools tend to get national recruiting, while ‘lesser’ schools get more local recruiting. If your son’s goal is to remain local, there is probably no disadvantage in getting the local degree.</p>
<p>r2dtoo, I agree with your objective of broadening recruiting efforts. Long ago I found recruiting the most irrational aspect of my employer. My opinion is that bosses wanted ‘no brainers’, and going after high prestige grads is thought of as less likely to be questioned. Having the guts to go with a non-obvious choice, trusting employees to know whom to hire, who has character, creativity, etc is hard, and many bosses don’t have the ability to discern these characteristics. Good luck with your quest.</p>
<p>It’s important that you are supporting your son’s choice. Attending the local school will help him remember who he is and what he is capable of then perhaps he could transfer somewhere once he feels up to it. I see the therapy, meds, and local school as an overall recovery plan that will enable him to transfer, and I would hope for that since he is academically so capable. Doesn’t have to be and probably shouldn’t be an Ivy. But as we all know, there are many choices.</p>
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<p>A couple of comments now that the thread has developed a bit further.</p>
<p>1) I know people who have made huge technical careeers (Silicon Valley, huge paychecks and bonuses, recruiting offers out of the blue) even without a basic BA/BS. My husband is one of them. In all his years of being hired, the companies have NEVER asked for a transcript, and he’s been hired and recruited by some of the biggest names in Silicon Valley. If your son has talent, he can have a lucrative career without a degree - and it sounds like he is on track to finish one, so all the better.</p>
<p>2) Grad schools also look at grade trends. Of course it is a possibility that some grad schools won’t accept him, but if your son has the brains, continues the grade trend, and does all the other “right” things - there is a grad school out there for him.</p>
<p>3) People switch career paths at few times in their lives now - we live longer, the global economy forces the workforce to be flexible. Maybe he’ll be an engineer - maybe he’ll end up in a totally different field. In short - I think as a parent you are being over focused on his undergraduate/graduate/career outcomes. If he’s moving forward, if he is engaged in studies/life/work, then that is the right pace and set of goals for him.</p>
<p>In short - support him emotionally but take a huge step back from all this private worrying you are doing. Let there be more space between how his career/college path grows vs. all your private hand-wringing. Even if you aren’t <em>saying</em> anything negative or confining to him, he is likely able to pick up on your disappointment or worry through your other cues. </p>
<p>Good luck,</p>
<p>Annika</p>
<p>My H. is an engineer ans working for engineering company operating in international markets. They hire mostly from our local univerisity. I heard opinions of others on CC that engineering companies mostly hire locally, if it helps you anyhow to not worry so much.</p>
<p>That is the beauty of engineering. Except for a couple of schools the name on the diploma means little and hiring is so regional based on relationships with local companies and universities. You just don’t have to play the elite game to do very well in engineering and other technical fields.</p>
<p>Frandg, I have a 20-year old son, as well, and I have found that the formula that works best for him is to always keep the family door open for fundamental support. Just the basics like being there for him, listening, and supporting HIS (more than our) point of view. We offer our advice, but it’s so basic that we seldom get into the detailed aspects of his life. An extra few bucks here and there seems to help. ;)</p>
<p>The most difficult thing about being a parent (imho) of 20-somethings has been to watch them hack through the big important life-changing decisions that they have had to make. We did it in our twenties, but we were not aware of how difficult it must have been for our parents when we did things that made perfect sense to us, but from their perspective, were impulsive and short-sighted. None of our parents interfered, although my husband’s parents sure complained a lot when we moved in together at the ages of 18 and 19. 
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<p>We’ve watched both of our kids take completely different routes in college, with one graduating last June and the other dropping out after his first year to pursue a music career. And, after all of the drama and angst around classes, finals, roommates, and jobs, by far the most difficult thing we’ve had to endure is to watch them work their way through relationships. Both of my kids had their hearts broken this summer, and honestly, I just want to kick their ex-significant others’ booties! We dropped subtle hints and not-so-subtle hints when we saw signs of trouble, but we had to step aside and let them go through these experiences so that, hopefully, they can grow from these life lessons. </p>
<p>So, we’ve had to give them a safe place to land more than once, and it’s unrealistic to think that our kids once they leave the nest are always going to do the sensible thing in our eyes. It’s too soon to tell if they’re making “mistakes,” anyway. Mistakes have a way of turning into brilliant moves. Just have faith that you’ve raised a beautiful, smart son, and he’ll find his way. ;)</p>
<p>P.S. We figured out pretty quickly that all of our good advice was making them feel less competent because it was making them feel like they couldn’t make these decisions on their own. That was a real biggee for us.</p>
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<p>Can we get an amen?</p>
<p>amen!
Sluggbugg makes and excellent point ~ and although I trick myself in to having long-term memory loss I know that I made many, many “mistakes” that my parents, thankfully, did not obsess about. I am so grateful for the many reminders on this thread to ‘let it be’ and to step aside and not try to fix everything. The more that I see the progress and growth that my son is exhibiting the easier it is getting, we are very proud. thank you all!</p>
<p>Most people will have careers with many twists and bumps – some quite damaging. It is hard to see in hindsight which decisions “really mattered.” One of the strengths of elite school systems is its greatest risk: the possibility of failing (whether due to bad luck or unpreparedness) in a challenging, high end environment. At its best, such failure tells you something about yourself and what you’ll put up with to get to your goal (career, degree, lifestyle, etc.)</p>
<p>Perhaps for a few there is some path of least resistance where everything seems smooth and seamless and all goes perfectly. But for many the hard knocks are the wake up calls we need.</p>
<p>My college roommate at Caltech was brilliant and driven but had erratic study habits. He flunked out and, not liking the UC system (which he attended for a little bit), never finished a degree anyplace. However he made great contributions in engineering and eventually helped start a software company which was bought out for a very large sum of money. He is retired now and is a highly demanded consultant. Despite his pains, he does not regret his college experience at all and feels that his contacts and training were crucial to his life success.</p>
<p>And we all know cases of those who went to less challenging schools as undergrads and soared in grad school. However I also know someone who seemed to be god’s gift to science and math as an undergrad in a small school, went to an elite grad school, struggled but still finished very well, got a great academic job at a strong university and then burned out trying to get tenure. He once said, “I wish I’d known as an undergrad how hard real research was.”</p>
<p>In hindsight it “might” (??) have been better if your son had not gone to a challenging Ivy and gone to a renowned, but less challenging university. But then again, he might be able to recover and see this experience as helping him figure out what he wants to do in life. Do not assume that all the top students who powered through HYPCMS for undergrad and grad on schedule, and then got the top jobs in IB or Law or business are necessarily happy or even successful.</p>
<p>All we can hope for our kids is to give them the best chances to see who they are and to succeed on their own terms, in their own areas of interests. But self-knowledge is probably the hardest thing to come by.</p>