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I wonder what common, generally-accepted practice currently applied by normal, loving parents will be broadly labelled as “horrible parenting” by the next generation. They may be more or less right about whether it’s a good idea or not, but we’ll probably protest that we were doing the best we could based on what the norms were at the time.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/fashion/22yell.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=yelling%20spanking&st=cse[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/fashion/22yell.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=yelling%20spanking&st=cse</a></p>
<p>Hunt, your question seems to be addressed in this New York times article.</p>
<p>This conversation sent me back to my almost-30-year-old copy of Dr. Spock (which still falls open to “Crying in the Early Weeks.” ;)) He was actually far more tolerant of spanking than popular opinion would have it, saying “I’m not particularly advocating spanking, but I think it is less poisonous than lengthy disapproval, because it clears the air for parents and child.” But his opinion on parents who hit their children when they aren’t angry has always stayed with me:</p>
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That’s how it seems to me, too. As abhorrent as I find the idea of a parent hitting a child in anger, it’s worse to think of a parent who chooses, even plans, to spank. I mean, is that the best they can do in a calm, entirely rational state of mind? Pretty creepy. And if they think it’s no big deal to spank a child - well, I beg to differ.</p>
<p>Speaking of creepy - I googled Dr. Spock and spanking looking for the above quote and didn’t find it, which was why I dug out my old copy. But there is some violently upsetting parenting “advice” out there about spanking.</p>
<p>I know people who will spank their kids but wouldn’t dream of hitting their dog. I don’t get that at all.</p>
<p>Beautiful post, TwistedxKiss. And it does bring home to me my one real feeling of guilt as a parent, which is that I have occasionally lost control of myself and yelled at my kid in a way that was over the line and scary. This probably happened no more than a half-dozen times in his whole childhood, but I know it was traumatic for him, especially when he was younger. There is no more painful memory in my life than one occasion when he was maybe ten years old when I exploded on him like that, and I just remember him cowering and crumpling into tears and I thought, god, what kind of a pig am I to make him feel like that? (Not a very useful thought after the fact…)</p>
<p>So I certainly don’t mean to imply that not spanking your kid makes you any kind of model parent. </p>
<p>Does anybody here know the song “Hitting You” from Loudon Wainwright III’s History album? The whole album is full of amazing stuff about family relationships, but that particular song is quite relevant to this thread.</p>
<p>On the yelling - I had a conversation recently with my mother and brother. Mom mentioned her regret that there was so much yelling at home when we were young. To which my brother replied, “Well, it was never unprovoked.”</p>
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<p>I know exactly what you mean. I can have a quick temper sometimes and go from 0 to 60 and back again all in the space of a few minutes (as can my son, and as could my mother) – although I’ve never been able to stay angry for more than a short time. And I deeply regret the handful of times in my son’s childhood that I yelled at him the way you describe. It still makes me feel horrible to think that I could have spoken that way to the person I love most in the world. All I’ve been able to do about it is tell him how sorry I am.</p>
<p>"On the yelling - I had a conversation recently with my mother and brother. Mom mentioned her regret that there was so much yelling at home when we were young. To which my brother replied, “Well, it was never unprovoked.” </p>
<p>Bingo, I think most kids are not fragile flowers and get over a typical mild spanking or being yelled at when it was deserved within no time. We know when we deserve it and the few times we did not. It never made me fear my parents in any way except to the point that bad behavior had consequences. Does not mean I don’t still engage in bad behavior but I think about first.</p>
<p>I got the wooden spoon a few times-never particularly hard or anything…just a quick swat on the butt…
I think any punishment that is actually painful is overboard…you can get your point across without damaging the kid</p>
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Sure, they get over it. Kids are very resilient and can get over nearly anything that doesn’t kill them. That doesn’t mean that damage isn’t done. </p>
<p>I mean, I’m not going to go jump off a bridge because I scared my kid a few times, but that doesn’t mean it was the right thing to do or that it’s inappropriate to regret it.</p>
<p>I will note that the punishments that I REALLY remember from my childhood are the ones I didn’t deserve. None of those was corporal punishment.</p>
<p>frazzled, since you brought up Spock, I remember consulting “the book” - not sure if it was Spock or Brazelton, for an answer to the simple question, “When is a child old enough to be spanked?” I was looking for when, not “if”! I was disappointed to learn it was not an approved practice. I finally figured out that a strict no spanking policy was the only way to avoid an accident. If you let yourself hit your child when you are angry it is just too easy to do real harm. Especially a grown man vs a small child. If you are already angry and hitting how the heck can you regulate the force of your blow?</p>
<p>I can only remember one time that my mom “spanked” me. Actually, she broke a hairbrush over my butt. Hit so hard and often that I received welts and bruises on my butt and thighs. My sister didn’t get it as hard as I did. When we went to school the next day, I couldn’t sit very well in my seat and when the teacher asked why, I told her I was spanked…she took me and my sister to the nurse’s office and I remember being embarrassed to have to pull my panties down to show her my butt.
The nurse called my mom to school and proceeded to “rip her a new one.” She was informed if this ever happened again, the police would be called. This was 1962. Never hated her or feared her for it, either.</p>
<p>2000, I worked for a “crazy-woman” who liked to scream and yell - at everyone and anyone. I would gladly take a swat on the butt over this woman’s shrieking at my perceived incompetencies anyday. Not the overboard beating I took, but a spanking.
I had 2 sons and can’t recall ever spanking them, not because I was spanked. Taking things/stuff/activities away from them was a good deterrent.</p>
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But isn’t it nice to know that she couldn’t swat you without facing a criminal charge? Why shouldn’t children should have at least that same level of protection? And, of course, the choice isn’t between physical abuse and verbal abuse, or even yelling vs. swatting. Personally, I’d rather be yelled at than hit - but I don’t think either is necessary, or certainly recommended, as a way to discipline children.</p>
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<p>I didn’t say there wasn’t any pain involved; it’s just that the pain wasn’t the purpose. The purpose is emphasis. How can you convey to a very young child that disobeying your parents on a busy Boston street is far more severe than disobeying your parents in your living room? Do you increase the time-out time from 5 minutes to 50? “Reason” and “discussion” isn’t a punishment; it’s a post-punishment recap.</p>
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<p>This could be done after spanking as well. For me, it was. I can remember my five-year-old mind understanding that I must have done something extremely inappropriate for my parents to lay a hand on me.</p>
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<p>Screaming and crying isn’t specific to spanking. You haven’t seen a child scream and pout while being put in time-out? The time for dialogue and learning is after punishment.</p>
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<p>I don’t buy it, nor do I buy Good Will Hunting as legitimate evidence. Matt Damon’s character in that movie is a victim of arbitrary, violent abuse. That is not a spanking issue, and thus is a straw-man fallacy.</p>
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You see a difference of kind where I see a difference of degree; I think spanking and “arbitrary, violent abuse” are two points on a continuum, not two distinct and separate things.</p>
<p>Put it this way: I recognized the Damon character’s experience and his response to it from my own experience. And my parents did not give me brutal, arbitrary beatings, nor did they use shop tools.</p>
<p>I have yet to hear of an instance where a physical punishment would be necessary. I can certainly understand why it happens, but I can’t see why someone would defend it as a preferred choice. There are many ways to make a point, and to emphasize the importance of obedience in certain circumstances. It’s quick and easy, but that’s the only plus I see going for it.
We wouldn’t hit a dog for disobeying our instructions, even in a important situation, although I’m aware that some people do. Don’t our kids deserve the same respect that we give our pets?</p>
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<p>Since proper spanking is neither arbitrary nor driven by anger, they are on two different continua. </p>
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<p>Because the point of spanking is emphasis, not violence. Who hits their dog to convey the severity of the situation? Plus, the range of importance of our instructions to dogs is much smaller than that to our children.</p>
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But since they both use pain and fear to establish dominance, they are on the same continuum. And has already been discussed up thread, there is considerable disagreement on whether and to what degree “proper spanking” is driven by anger.</p>
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Of course the point of spanking isn’t violence. Violence is the means, not the end. That would be equally true of hitting a dog (hopefully).</p>
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<p>The point of view that matters is the child’s and he/she may not see it that way and hitting or spanking is a form of violence, regardless of the point of view.</p>