Spend the 529 plan on undergraduate degree, or save for grad school?

Parents Forum
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Purple- for sure. I went to a large urban HS (larger than many of the colleges which are favorites on CC) and managed to avoid a single one-on-one conversation with a teacher during that time. I was neither a trouble-maker nor a musical/scientific/athletic prodigy, so the pretty substantial resources that existed for finding and identifying talent did not apply to me. I never found a social niche, and other than getting good grades and doing my homework, didn’t get much out of HS.

College was a completely different ballgame. Professors who wanted to engage-- some who insisted (the final for one literature class consisted of an hour-long conversation in the professor’s office while he poured tea and led a discussion about “your choice” of novel). Lifelong friends, amazing volunteer opportunities fully supported by the college, and really deep resources for all the stuff I was interested in- or learned to get interested in!

I confess that I don’t know a lot of people who found themselves in HS but I’m sure there are millions of them out there. I was just putting in a plug for at least keeping an open mind to the possibility that a U of C type experience MIGHT be worth it (of course- if it’s actually affordable, and not the urban myth of “if we win the lottery and I sell my kidney”).

Upnorth- I wasn’t referring to the prestige factor of the undergrad experience but more the ability to become who you were meant to be. Can you do that at U Mass Boston or CUNY or UC Davis or Wayne State? Of course. But so much of the dialogue on CC devolves into ROI, or “will it pay out”, or “should I save the 529 fund for the not-yet-born grandchildren instead of using it for the kid who eats breakfast in my kitchen every day right now” or “can you get into a better grad school from Barnard vs. Columbia” that I wanted to post a different point of view. Not better- but different.

I have college classmates who are Pulitzer writers, an EGOT and several Emmy and Tony winners, many millionaires of varying levels of entrepreneurship, some well known politicians both nationally and state-wide, diplomats, scientists doing groundbreaking work, and the usual complement of successful lawyers and doctors. I also have classmates who are schoolteachers and librarians and social workers and religious leaders who are neither famous nor well paid.

I am none of those things, and unlike some of my classmates, will never be interviewed to ask “what did college do for you”. And even so-- there is a not inconsiderable number of us who STILL found college life-altering, and appreciate the enormous sacrifices our (now long gone in my case) parents made to get us there.

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@blossom, yep, for every person, it’s different. The instructors who cared for me the most were in my HS (I still connect with a couple every so often though one is getting up there in age) and I made the most long-lasting friendships in b-school.

But I agree that if you have the funds and lay out all the practical considerations and pros and cons (and hopefully get to visit various schools; both dreams and NMS schools so that he can see if there is enough of a difference), if he still wants to take a shot at the U of C (and maybe a few others he feels strongly about), let him choose to do so. Ultimately, it’s his life to live and you don’t want him to blame you if you force him to go down a different path and he is unhappy.

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@blossom thank you for sharing your perspective and your kind words. (I do think he’s a special kid!) You’ve articulated nicely the case for the dream school. And we always have to keep in mind, chances are he won’t even be admitted to UC (or Rice) and we won’t have to worry about making that call.

@UpNorth2019 thank you also for articulating the pragmatic approach. I waffle between the emotional appeal and the pragmatic one from hour to hour. And November is still 5 months away!

My son read through the responses and had a few chuckles, learned a few acronyms (such as ROI), and neither of us knows which is the right way to go. And incidentally, he told me he doesn’t want us to buy him a car. He’d rather have his dream school.

I do get frustrated with the ED option in general. Seems to me students should be able to consider all of their options in full and not be pawns in the yield game. It’s not as if highly competitive universities are going to have any empty seats in their freshman class. Ultimately my preference would be for him to apply EA, let the chips fall, and fully consider all offers in Spring 2021 before making a decision.

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@Culbreath , I feel your pain on ED. But since you are going into this for the first time, don’t think of it as schools playing a yield game in which you are a pawn. They are trying to create a class, and
the value to them of ED isn’t “yielding 100%”, it’s making sure they have the foundation around which to build the rest of their class.

While the impact is the same for you in that you have to decide who your first choice is without knowing all your options, it can also help to think of it this way because the application then becomes one of making a compelling argument for being one of those foundational members. “Here’s what I will bring to your class!”

But you are right in that you do need to decide upfront if it’s the path for you, and if you choose ED and are admitted, you won’t know what your other options might have been. Otoh, if you are not admitted ED, you will have choice and know you gave your first choice the best shot you could.

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It seems to me that the grandparents funded the 529 so that your S could go to his dream school if he gets in. Now because he has worked hard and will probably have other, cheaper options, you want to take the dream school off the table because it will use up all the money that was set aside for college. I went to a T10 undergrad and then straight to law school. My undergrad was much more “life changing” than law school, although I see my law school friends more due to geography. I agree that U of C is a special, quirky kind of place, and if that is really, really what your S wants, it seems very difficult not to let him give it his best shot by applying ED, especially since it is affordable with this gift of the 529.

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@scorekeeper1 that is the conundrum, and I did tell S21 a while back that just because he will (likely) have great scholarship opportunities due to NMF (and his other accomplishments), I don’t want it to limit his options. My S is actually as conflicted as I am. He recognizes that he may need funding for grad school, and one of his own personal goals is to finish college with no debt. Personally I think a reasonable amount of debt to invest in education is ok, but it’s always nice to start out adult life without it. The other thing about this kid is that he’s very frugal and doesn’t need a lot in terms of luxuries. I don’t know how much grad school costs these days, but I could see him surviving on a TA’s stipend in grad student housing as my husband and I did for a couple years.

I also found undergrad to be much more transformational than grad school, which was more of a “meh” experience. The money is his, and the question is what is the best way for him to invest it. If he comes to me and says he really wants to apply ED to U of C, I will support that.

I do think a U of C education could be life changing for him. I think it would be a very different experience for him than a large public university. I wouldn’t feel the same way about my S23 who plans to pursue engineering.

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If he’s naturally frugal, and the grad programs he might land in are likely to be fully funded, then talk through that with him. My daughter and several of her friends are in (or have recently finished) grad school. All of them have been able to fit their lives to the funding that their programs offered.

If there is enough money in the 529 to cover the costs at U of Chicago, then that means that whatever he makes in a summer or school year job, and doesn’t spend down on pizza, movies, and beer, could be stashed to help with grad school. It would be OK for him to take that into account if he wants to.

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@Culbreath : to be clear, I’m NOT saying that I think spending all one’s 529 $ for a prestigious undergrad is always a poor choice. If your son decides that U of Chicago is truly the right place for him (and for the right reasons), then he should go for it.

I just don’t believe that I received any ‘better’ of an education than did my med school classmates who went to less prestigious schools. I had some amazing opportunities and a ton of fun, but it wasn’t the foundational experience that made me who I am. I also wasn’t any better prepared academically for med school than anyone else was.

I’m also so disgusted with the extent to which fancy name colleges have become status symbols that prestige-obsessed families ‘collect’ like luxury cars or yachts. I know that that’s always been a thing, but it’s gotten completely out of control in the last several years (i.e. the Varsity Blues families).

And colleges have played right into it, and none worse than U of Chicago with how they have inflated their USNWR rankings. They deliberately lower their yield by aggressively marketing to kids who have no realistic chance of getting in, are nearly alone in refusing to release their Common Data Set info to give kids any idea about who has a realistic chance of admission, etc.

It all just makes me want to opt out and refuse to play the game. (That, and the fact that I frankly don’t want to pay >$300,000 just for one kid’s B.A.) Having said that, I respect that others chose differently.

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“and the grad programs he might land in are likely to be fully funded”

Big assumption.

It really depends on what type of grad programs.

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@UpNorth2019, I agree with you on the game and gaming part. It’s gotten ridiculous and the U of C is aggressive, though plenty of schools aggressively game the US News ranking . . . . because they are incented to do so. I’ve seen plenty of instances on CC where a kid (or parent, though that occurs less) heavily values an Ivy/equivalent that is T10 in USNews more than an Ivy/equivalent that is T20 in USNews even when the alumni outcomes are similar (and sometimes even when the T20 is more renown in the particular field of interest). Same deal with T20 vs. T40, etc.

BTW, Columbia also doesn’t release a CDS. You always wonder what schools who don’t release a CDS want to hide.

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I have had not one but two parents of my daughter’s friends who toured University of Chicago (Pre-Covid) and who left with the impressions that their average-excellent, upper-middle-class, white, unhooked kids had a decent shot not just at admission, but at merit money there!

And these were both highly educated, savvy moms who had also toured lots of other schools. U of C must have quite the misleading info session.

I just smile and nod. Smile and nod.

(I do recognize that U of C is an amazing school for the kid who wants to stay up all night debating Nietzsche with her roommates. That’s not my kid, though, which is another reason that it made it easier for us to not even look at schools like U of C. My daughter calls schools them “nerd schools” :smile: ).

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It makes me sad that schools need to be labeled Nerd schools. Why not decide “I can’t see myself here” and leave it at that?

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@blossom I’ve read some of your replies on other threads, as well as this one, and I love your kind heart. I’d love to have coffee with you sometime. :smile:

But I’ll defend @UpNorth2019 in that I affectionately say my son is nerdy/quirky (and brilliant, and fun, and creative, and kind) and I want to help him find a school with that kind of vibe. It’s not a negative to us.

And to that end, for those of you who are now somewhat invested in our story, since U of C admission is so unlikely in any event, what other LACs or universities might provide the same type of environment and experience, with a higher likelihood of admission (and possibly scholarship money)? I’ve mentioned Kenyon, which is known for creative writing, one of S21’s passions. He did a virtual visit at Wooster this week but didn’t like the bagpipes (I’ve asked him to keep an open mind about it anyway). What other gems are we missing?

And that still leads back to the ED vs EA question. There are other schools out there where he will thrive, and hopefully have similar opportunities post graduation, for a lot less money.

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Thanks for the defense, @Culbreath.

@blossom : ‘nerd’ isn’t the insult it used to be: it’s been appropriated by the quirky, intellectual kids as a badge of pride. (Thanks, Bill Gates!)

Culbreath: back to schools: Here’s a brief summary of what I’ve learned about merit scholarships after lots of lurking on this site. The tippy-top schools don’t do merit. Period. (Other than a few grand for NMS, and many don’t even do that.)

The merit $ starts around the mid-teens in the USNWR rankings for LACs. Schools that give merit are highly concentrated in the Midwest and South since so many kids live on the Eastern/Middle Atlantic seaboard and want to stay there and everyone wants to go to CA and the Pacific NW. (It’s pure economics – schools will charge what they can for full-pay students. A rural LAC in the South has to work hard to entice top students to go there).

A few schools that come to mind for your son that seem like his type (quirky, creative, etc) and which do merit are Grinnell, Oberlin, and Macalester, if those aren’t already on your list. Grinnell is an incredible school with a massive endowment, so has unparalleled opportunities for paid internships, research, etc. I wish my daughter would look there, but based on the kids from our n’hood who go there, it’s just not her ‘tribe’. She also flat-out refuses to look at a school ‘in the cornfields of Iowa’! (see above).

Here’s how to know exactly how much merit schools give. Google “common data set + (school name)”. The end of Section C reports their 75%ile test scores and median GPA (some only report deciles of class rank). That gives you an idea whether you kid is at the 75%ile for stats, which is where the merit $ really starts. (Not every school reports it, and it’s not always the most recent admissions cycle if they do).

Next, scroll down to section H, Financial Aid. Under the “scholarship/grants” table, look at the $ listed in the cell for ‘institutional’, ‘non-need based’ aid. THAT’S how you know how much merit $ they dole out every year. If it’s a lot, your kid has a decent shot at real merit $ if their stats are in the 75%ile.

Granted, COVID-19 has completely upset the apple cart. Lots of kids won’t have any scores this year, and no one knows that the impact will be of schools losing hundred of millions of this spring and potentially again next school year. So who knows. I’ve only talked to one FA office so far, but they at least told me that there were no planned changes to their merit aid for the upcoming admissions cycle.

The best resource I’ve found for schools that give merit for NMS (beyond just the few grand that lots of schools do) is
https://college-kickstart.com/blog/item/colleges-with-great-scholarships-for-national-merit-finalists

Most of the schools that give big $ for NMS are big state schools, but there are some LACs and privates on the list as well.

I hope this helps!

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Yep, a bunch of LACs fit the bill. The ones who give some merit scholarships will be in the Midwest/South, as mentioned above (I was going to mention Oberlin but @UpNorth2019 beat me too it). Grinnell and Macalester are also good suggestions and you already know of Kenyon. I’m afraid that many LACs below that level (especially the vast majority of rural ones) will struggle financially going forward.

And I’m going to mention NCF again. You do have to research it (Quora is helpful for both the good and bad aspects), but I think it would be a good full-ride (pending what the FL legislature does) safety.

Honestly, I think too many people overthink the college selection process. If I was in your son’s shoes, the path would be pretty clear:

  1. ED1 to the U of C
    If need be
  2. ED2 to WashU
    And RD to Kenyon, Oberlin, Macalester, Grinnell, NCF, maybe Whitman for a Western option, and maybe a few other full-tuition/full-ride NMS schools (I would suggest Fordham, which may offer what he’s looking for through its honors offerings).
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If he’s going to eliminate Wooster because of bagpipes, he’s going to have to take U of C off of the list as well as they are part of the culture there too. Played at orientation, convocation, alumni weekend and special events. Should save you a ton of $! ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p8KGxNig8g

https://mag.uchicago.edu/arts-humanities/bagpipes-mystery

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UoC, Columbia, Rice, Kenyon
=> Grinnell, Reed, Vassar?
(Wooster, Knox, Kalamazoo, even St Olaf may all be worth considering).
For a Humanities major, class depends a lot on peer quality and interests/intellectual orientation. It’s very different from Engineering, where facilities matter a lot but students who can’t make it don’t take up the discussion, they just get weeded out. In addition, for intellectual/nerdy/quirky kids, finding like-minded students can be life changing indeed.
In addition, that 529 was supposed to allow your child to attend any college he got into and loved, right? I wouldn’t hold off if there is a great fit for him that he can afford. Cross the “grad school” bridge when/if you get to it.

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So my son has made his decision (as of now). He wants to apply EA. Even though U of C is his top choice, he still wants to consider his options once they come in. If U of C loves him and he’s able to show he’s “interesting and memorable,” then perhaps he’ll have an acceptance. If not, or he’s just one of the many who could qualify but there’s just not enough room, then so be it. He’ll have other options. He spoke to his AO at U of C and she encouraged him not to apply ED if he’s not comfortable with it, and he’s not. I hear the arguments about “shaping a class” but I just don’t see the advantage to the student. I’m confident he’ll have full tuition, if not full COA, offers, and he’s going to want to put those side-by-side with all the offers and make a decision, hopefully after a few more campus visits. Plus with COVID uncertainty which will be with us for at least several more months, it’s that much harder to make a binding commitment.

I still hope to get him to consider Wooster. They are open for tours this summer and have offered him some kind of streamlined application and scholarship consideration.

Personally I really appreciate what Princeton did in moving to one regular decision date for this year. I wish U of C, and other top schools, would do the same.

Thanks to all for following and sharing your advice! I’ve made a list of all the schools mentioned and we will do some additional research.