Agree. We should work to close the gap. But ignoring facts (including test scores) does not close the gap. It is merely looking the other way
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Isn’t the class supposed to be the prep material? My kids have never had to use extra resources for their APs. A student who gets an A in a properly taught class (and in our case, even a A- or B+) should have no problem getting a 4 or 5 on the exam. This is why AP scores can be used to assess the type of grade inflation happening at a school.
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Also, UCs primarily work with CA schools and know how to “read” the transcript summary box and the detailed transcript.
In addition, they have mountains of data, especially at “known quantity” schools, ie, schools that send a lot of strong applications (say, Gunn, Lowell, Los Altos…) On the same way, they’d be able to decipher what constitutes a top transcript from Siskiyou HS or from Bakersfield HS, where only 17%students are proficient in math.
They don’t need SAT scores to evaluate these and what some posters said above would indicate their reading technique and what people at the schools could see in terms of correlation is usually correct.
Private universities that recruit nationally have to handle hundreds of thousands of HS and, barring those with the IBD and “known quantities”, it’s be impossible for readers to know them all. 
Hence the need for an external test, which can be anything the students can get their hands on.
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But that’s where reasonable people can disagree.
The vast majority of schools that rank high in social mobility (which as noted above are not the highly rejective schools) are test blind or test optional. These are the schools that are closing the gap. Dartmouth (to take one example) is not closing the gap because they enroll relatively few of these students, and now, with a test required policy, they are choosing from an even smaller pool of these students (institutional priority students with test scores that are competitive enough to submit, and the student and/or counselor understand that so they go to the trouble of applying.)
The schools that rank high in social mobility are not looking the other way. They are providing courses and supports that these students who aren’t college ready need. An example is UT Austin for the top 5% students (previously top 6%)…some of these students aren’t college ready or just marginally college ready. Even if they have a 900 SAT (UT Austin requires test scores), UT Austin has to accept them if they are in the top 5%, so…that might be a student who needs algebra 2 and/or other supports. Closing the gap as it were. Should colleges have to deal with this (getting students up to speed with what they should have learned in HS?) Ideally no. But is it to society’s benefit that they do? Yep.
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An article I still remember ~10 years later, followed a young woman from Texas.
She was a first generation student from a low performing school district admitted to UT and she almost failed out first semester because of math deficiencies. Her supportive mother just told her “maybe college is just too hard for you? Just come home it’s okay”… But she met a professor who directed her to a tutor and explained about office hours& review sessions and other support systems they have, she went on to pass the class and became a successful math major.
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That’s the perfect example, thanks for sharing! So many students with similar stories like that coming out of UT Austin and their well appointed programs, as well as many other schools that are social mobility leaders…UC Merced, some of the CSUs, UIC, Ga State and many more.
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The way to close the gap is to focus on K-12 education and particularly on the foundation - elementary school. Not considering SAT scores is to ignore the outcome of years of poor education.
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I am in agreement. I think the reason they are looking at AP scores more now is because the politicians took away the possibility of them considering SATs. They look at what they have.
They absolutely don’t evaluate theatre and music kids the same as STEM kids. Some programs have auditions to get into performing arts (I know UCLA has a conservatory and UCSD has audition based music). But if you are applying in STEM (honestly half of UCLA seems to be premed), they are taking into account whatever they have available to make sure you can survive these courses and thrive. And yes, often AP scores can indicate competence.
I really wish they would bring back SATs. I think it’s more likely going to level the playing field than extracurriculars. Every kid in a real lab we know had a connection (family friends). Same with internships. Pay to play research is completely out of reach for poor kids. Music lessons, summer music programs, same thing.
I honestly feel the greatest beneficiaries of test optional have been upper middle class kids who couldn’t score high but had rich enough parents to make them look great on paper.
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Not sure this is the article to which you refer, but it may be similar . . . (gift link).
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Agreed. And I’ve said that dozens of times on this and other threads.
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Why are we reinventing the wheel by asking the flagship or research U’s to remediate for kids who aren’t (yet) college ready? We already have a community college system set up to do that- and at MUCH lower cost. It seems like a heavy lift on both the institution and the student to figure out how to become college ready at a university. The CC’s in my area are already teaching (and have instructors skilled at doing so) accelerated versions of HS math, the kind of grammar and syntax instruction a kid should have gotten in middle school, “Introduction to Lab Sciences” which is pretty much the gateway course for kids interested in a certificate in phlebotomy or Pharm tech, in addition to those kids who intend to head to a university after getting their AA.
SO MANY KIDS have exhausted their Pell by enrolling in a college they aren’t ready for… and by the time they’ve accumulated enough credits to be juniors or seniors, the money is gone. If the flagship U’s have to gatekeep via SAT’s or similar to make sure that university students are university ready, that helps everyone. Fewer kids dropping out because they are in over their heads. That’s a good outcome, no?
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I don’t think this is an either/or proposition. One could try to improve K-12 education while at the same time trying to remediate some of the damage done by addressing various issues at the college level. See for example the article linked just above about the UT approach.
It isn’t ignoring the outcome of what you term “poor education.” Rather, it is recognizing that the test scores often tell us more about that prior education than it does about the actual students. And it is too early to make statements about the final outcome, because much can be done at the college level, despite the varying levels of quality in K-12.
Again, consider the nytimes article about UT Austin. While test scores are required in Tx, the article focuses on kids who gained admission by being in the top of their class at “poor” schools, regardless of their test scores.
The various initiatives discussed in the article drastically improved there chance of success of the students most at risk of not succeeding, drastically improving the graduation rate, among other indicators. This wasn’t accomplished by overhauling primary and secondary education in Texas. It was accomplished by improving the quality of the educational experience and fostering a sense of belonging among the students most at risk of dropping out:
The heart of the project is a portfolio of “student success programs,” each one tailored, to a certain extent, for a different college at U.T. — natural sciences, liberal arts, engineering — but all of them following the basic TIP model Laude dreamed up 15 years ago: small classes, peer mentoring, extra tutoring help, engaged faculty advisers and community-building exercises.
Sounds to me like the school and the students were able to overcome their “poor education” and that ll it too was to give the vulnerable students a small taste of what wealthy families take for granted at quality schools.
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That’s what community colleges are for. Sadly they don’t often do a great job either. My son’s good friend had a 4.8 GPA thanks to a ton of CC classes he took as a high schooler. A very poor Central Valley community with terrible schools and equally terrible CC. He flunked out of biology twice at a UC. Gave up his major. Attempted math. Flunked out of calculus. I think he is now majoring in Chicano studies. He dreamed of biochem. I don’t know what the answer is. I firmly believe that remediating shouldn’t be a job of UCs. But I want community colleges to do the job.
In my state, (not Texas) studies seem to suggest that the biggest driver of low income kids dropping out is running out of money. Peer groups, small classes, sense of belonging, all of these are great. But if a kid is a second semester freshman at the flagship and still not ready for university level work, the clock is ticking financially. Several flagship U’s are not located in their state’s population centers (Massachusetts, CT for example) so kids are already paying to dorm while still not ready for college level work.
How is this helping remediate a poor K-12 education? They can take “Analyzing Literature” at their local CC, taught by an instructor who specializes in remedial education, and don’t have to pay room, board, tuition for a university before they are ready.
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I don’t think top colleges are admitted students who are not yet college ready, and I don’t think most colleges are all that competitive by test score.
As for community colleges, I don’t see it an an either/or proposition. CA has a multiple routes to an UC or CSU education, including the community colleges, excelling in one’s high school, excelling statewide, and/or the general application pool. Nearly half of students earning a bachelor’s degree from a UC campus in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) transferred from a California community college. CCC Technology Center
This is true, but it is much more likely to occur at less competitive schools where either the tests aren’t required or where the tests pose little or no barrier. The graduation rate at UCLA is over 90% (and over 90% for those who attended community college.) In other words, one can determine if a kid has the wherewithal to graduate without tests.
See above. Also I think your anecdote doesn’t paint an accurate picture of the overall CC program.
UT is the top university YOU referenced, not me.
I’m sorry . . . you lost me. Yes I referenced UT, and I and others have also been discussing UC. I’d be glad to discuss either one, as there is at least some overlap in their approaches.
I wouldn’t describe the UT programs a"remedial" and I believe the kids being discussed were ready for college. I believe they have done quite well, and are graduating at much higher rates than before the programs.
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Not meant to show an overall picture. It’s meant to show that outcomes can vary based on many factors - strength of CC, courses chosen, faculty….
CCs aren’t always an answer but with better quality control, they could be.
Some of them are absolutely amazing.
I am saying it’s a mixed bag across the state.
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What’s the question?
I’m having trouble understanding why students who graduated at the top of their class and with the requisite courses required by the UCs are ready for a UC education just because they didn’t take the SAT or ACT, or because their scores are lower than kids a much better schools.
I’m wondering if the argument (that we need the test scores to keep unqualified students out) is really more about giving a leg up to those from better schools with higher scores. Not saying you personally believe this, but these threads always come back to the implication that unqualified kids are being let in to these schools, and frankly I don’t see much of any evidence of it. And if this isn’t it, then what’s the problem/question?
Another way to look at it is, for kids who have already taken all the UC prerequisites and done well, then what purpose would CC serve? Spinning their wheels until they reach the transfer window?
Please feel free to start a new thread to discuss the role of community college in closing the gaps between HS and 4 year universities.
This thread is about schools that are bringing back standardized testing.
Further off topic posts will be deleted.
Thank you for your understanding.