Which concepts would that be?
You can easily look at the SAT prep materials and a HS syllabus or khan academy if the answer is of interest.
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I’m not sure if students haven’t learned a large part of SAT math by the end of their junior year. According to College Board (link), students see four types of math on the test:
Algebra
• Linear equations in 1 variable
• Linear equations in 2 variables
• Linear functions
• Systems of 2 linear equations in 2 variables
• Linear inequalities in 1 or 2 variables
Advanced Math
• absolute value, quadratic, exponential, polynomial, rational, radical, and other nonlinear equations.
• Equivalent expressions
• Nonlinear equations in 1 variable
• Systems of equations in 2 variables
• Nonlinear functions
Problem-Solving and Data Analysis
• Ratios, rates, proportional relationships, and units
• Percentages
• One-variable data: distributions and measures of center and spread
• Two-variable data: models and scatterplots
• Probability and conditional probability
• Inference from sample statistics and margin of error
• Evaluating statistical claims: observational studies and experiments
Geometry and Trigonometry
• Area and volume formulas
• Lines, angles, and triangles
• Right triangles and trigonometry
• Circles
Students who follow a “typical” math track (Algebra 1 in 9th grade, Geometry in 10th, Algebra 2 in 11th) have learned nearly all of these topics when they take the SAT by the end of their junior year. I’m not sure if it’s fair to blame their performance on not having seen a large part of the topics. They have. Some just learned it better than others.
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Yes. The original post says “SAT and ACT scores are two of four options applicants can use to satisfy ASU’s ‘Aptitude requirement’”
Update on the UCs and standardized tests: Minutes from the April 2025 BOARS meeting (page 7) state that UC Davis is discussing “whether standardized test scores should again be required for admissions” and UC Berkeley “is surveying faculty about standardized tests.” Whether these discussions and faculty surveys lead to recommendations to bring back standardized test remains to be seen.
There’s also been significant discussions at the UCs about the lack of math preparedness of admitted students, especially among STEM majors. This is from the April 2025 BOARS meeting (page 7-8):
UCSD: A new committee was set up to review the division’s admissions. The head of the math department, a member of this new committee, presented the assessment test results for students placed into Math 2. The test results showed that the average math competency of a Math 2 student is somewhere between grades four and six, in terms of math preparation.
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At UCSD, Students take a math placement test. Math 2 is called “Introduction to College Mathematics” and is for students who aren’t ready for college math. The course cannot be taken for`baccalaureate credit and must be taken P/NP, so it should be of no surprise that some of those enrolled have minimal math skills. Given the UC prerequisites, I’m guessing a low percentage of students end up in this class.
But how does statement you quoted support your claim that there have been “significant discussions at the UCs about the lack of math preparedness of admitted students, especially among STEM majors.” Where does the quoted material reference STEM majors? What makes you think that a significant number of STEM majors are starting in a not-for-credit math course?
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UCSD said so at the January 2025 UC BOARS meeting (page 5):
UCSD: The committee has concerns about math preparedness and is attempting to determine what is leading to a lack of preparedness. The campus created two classes to help students in STEM majors who require substantial math preparation.
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But this has nothing to do with MATH 2, which doesn’t even count for credit. Seems misleading to suggest that a substantial number of kids with 4th grade math skills are enrolling at UCSD to study math, engineering, CS, etc.
Also, it is not at all clear that the supposed lack of math prep has anything to do with the lack of a SAT test requirement, especially given that schools across the nation are discovering that Covid protocols hit math prep particularly hard.
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You’re guessing a low percentage but who is to say how many are actually ready for STEM level math since this is the average for students placed in Math 2. This is likely the low end of the distribution but there is absolutely no reason to assume that there is only this group while everyone else would be well prepared. In fact, it’s very unlikely given the way distributions work. However, let’s say it is a small percentage - how does it serve these students to go to UCSD and be quite behind other students in attendance? Sure they might be able to catch up but college is already hard and these students now have to work that much harder to not just keep up but to play catch up.
As for the UC prerequisites being some high bar to overcome limiting the number of students not ready for college math, if that were true, it would have prevented this scenario in the first place, yet clearly that’s not the case. These students met the UC requirements and not only that, they are in the top of their class and yet their math background is nowhere near enough to tackle college level math. These students are at UCSD so are likely in the top 5% of their graduating class and most would have stellar GPA’s.
I don’t see how it matters if they are STEM majors or not. Students in both STEM and non-STEM should be prepared for college level courses in both humanities and STEM. These students may not be STEM students but what if they wish to be later? They may find it too difficult catch up.
What I find interesting are posters here that insist the school one goes to does not matter and yet at the same time argue that SAT scores that might bar students from entering certain schools should be done away with. Beyond the financial aid argument that some of the top ranked schools provide making their price tag more affordable than most schools, what is the argument against SAT scores being used to assess a student’s readiness to tackle material at a given school since it should not matter what school a student attends? How does it serve these students for them to go to UCSD where they may not have the preparation and may find their options to major in certain fields limited vs attend a community college for a couple of years so they can catch up and be better prepared to transfer into UCSD, hopefully in a major of their choosing that they feel well-equipped for.
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I think you’re putting the cart before the horse here. The point of the SAT is to detect if a student has the preparation needed to tackle college level math. The SAT is not the reason for a kid being prepared for college level math but rather would these students who are competent at the 4th-6th grade level have been flagged as not being prepared to handle college level math? Yes. That’s the point of the SAT.
Whether there has been a deterioration in math skills across the state or not since covid is beside the point. There are certainly way more than enough students in California who are well prepared for college level math even if there is a decline in overall scores. The problem is that some students are not well prepared and the SAT can be used to flag those students who would be better served not having to try to quickly catch up to the students who are well prepared.
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Hmm, this discussion of UCSD Math 2 made me curious about it, so I looked up a few things.
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Just for context, here is the math course listing: Mathematics
Math 2 is a P/NP class and is marked as “Workload credit only—not for baccalaureate credit.” (I’m not completely sure what that means.). It is more elementary than the three different precalculus classes offered (3B, 3C, and 4C). -
I was curious how many students take Math 2 and the various precalculus classes. I found UCSD historical enrollment data conveniently organized here: UCSD Historical Enrollment Data · GitHub
For Fall 2024 (just as an example), it looks like these were the numbers, if I’m reading this correctly:
- Math 2: About 600 students
- Math 3B: About 400 students
- Math 3C: About 430 students
- Math 4C: About 330 students
Yes, that was my guess too, so I was surprised to see 600 students in it.
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Yes… what MirandaKnight said.
I’ll add that both the College Board and the ACT promote their respective tests as useful in assessing college readiness (SAT and ACT).
And I’ll state the obvious: the fact that UCSD chose to report this one issue of math preparedness/assessment in its Member Report/Campus Update at the once-per-month BOARS meeting shows that this is an important issue that the campus wants to address. This issue is not limited to UCSD or the UCs–see Harvard University: The Ivy League teaching remedial math
Harvard is quick to blame these math gaps on pandemic learning losses — but, in truth, administrators brought this mess on themselves by scrapping standardized testing requirements during the pandemic, all in the name of equity.
Without any SAT or ACT scores on their applications, no wonder kids without basic math skills were able to slip through the cracks. The school should have seen this coming.
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Thanks for the information. That seems like quite a few! How many first years are there? 8000? That would be about 20% of the class.
While we shouldn’t assume that all students enrolled in Math 2 are first-year students, I’ll point out that UCSD enrolled 7,330 “first-time, first-year” students (according to its 2024-25 Common Data Set).
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It seemed like quite a few to me, too. It’s possible that some students are taking this class for multiple quarters (sorry, I originally said semesters since I forgot UCSD is on quarters), since the class description says you can repeat twice for credit. So maybe it’s not such a high percentage of the incoming class that is placing into Math 2, I don’t know.
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I believe - though I could be mistaken - that the students at the UC’s are required to start on their assigned remedial math class as soon as possible. They may not be able to take all of the remedial math they’re required to take in their first year but I would expect everyone in Math 2 to be incoming students and probably most for Math 3B. I expect 3C and 4C might be a mix of sophomores and freshmen.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but that’s my understanding of UC’s requiring students to prioritize the remedial work first.
Just to expand on this, it looks like the number of students enrolled in Math 2 drops off a lot after Fall quarter, so I’m guessing that Math 2’s Fall enrollment probably approximates the number of entering freshmen placing into this math level. It may even undercount the number who placed into this math level, if Fall quarter filled to capacity (which appears to be the case) so that some of the students at this level had to wait to take it.
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It counts toward the number of credit units in the schedule, but does not actually give credit units toward the degree.
I.e. if you have a 15 unit schedule, but 4 units are Math 2, then you will finish the quarter earning 11 units assuming that you pass all courses.
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Okay, that makes sense. The “workload units” would mean that you’ll still be considered a full-time student in good standing, even if you are only earning 11 units towards your degree.
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About 88% of students at UCSD graduate, even though its families have a higher percentage of students from low income families as compared to peer schools. For a public school serving a state as diverse as CA, that is excellent, and strong evidence that school is NOT admitting a substantial number of kids who cannot absorb the material necessary to graduate.
In short, the school is taking kids from diverse backgrounds and with vastly varying level of privilege and those kids are succeeding. That is a sign the school is doing something right, not something wrong.
If 600 kids are starting in the uncredited Math 2 course and they are still successful, then that is good indication they are choosing the right kids despite vast differences in preparation level across the state.
As for the notion that California is doing these kids a disservice by even admitting them . . . IMO that is insulting.
MATH 2 is not new. It predates the test-blind era. States that strive for economically diverse student bodies representative an entire state will always have a need to bring some kids up to speed.
To add to what @ucbalumnus said, the credits count toward credit counts (which can impact financial aid, full time status, etc. but not graduation.
As for 600 students in this class, that’s surprising. If 600 freshman are taking this course, then I’d like more information on this professors idea of what 4th grade math level means, and how his conclusion was determined.
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