Stanford vs. Berkeley

<p>I did it. My freshman year roommate almost did it (he turned down Stanford for Cambridge). His girlfriend did it. Her roommate from sophomore year on did it too. </p>

<p>That’s a concept: 3 year Berkeley BA/BS, 1 year Stanford MA/MS.</p>

<p>Yes, we all studied a lot when we had to, but it’s very do-able.</p>

<p>* Of course * it’s doable by some people. When you have over 23,000 undergrads, some of them are going to be doing quite well.</p>

<p>But then plenty others are not going to do that well. </p>

<p>I take it from context that you were a Berkeley MCB grad. {If I am wrong about that, then we can talk about the major that you did come from.} Consider the places where the MCB grads end up. Sure, some of them ended up in some of the top graduate schools in the world. But others did not. For example, I see some people ending up in grad school at UCRiverside. Or UCIrvine. Or CalState Hayward. Let’s face it. Those guys probably weren’t exactly competitive to get into Stanford.</p>

<p><a href=“http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MCB.stm[/url]”>http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MCB.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And of course that’s just talking about those people who managed to get into graduate school at all. Plenty of MCB people don’t get into any graduate school. Heck, plenty of people who intend to major in MCB don’t even manage to graduate with an MCB degree as they find it’s too hard and they end up majoring in something else. Some people don’t even manage to graduate at all, but instead will flunk out entirely.</p>

<p>I find it funny that two Cal grads (one in grad school at MIT, the other in grad school at Stanford) are arguing over whether getting into a good grad school from Cal is possible for most students. The evidence on these boards says yes. I guess there will always be naysayers.</p>

<p>Yeah, I find it pretty funny too. </p>

<p>Sakky makes it seem like doing well in the sciences at Berkeley is an uphill climb through a grease covered vertical rock surface, coated with rusty nails and shards of glass, with Nazis firing machine gun bullets down at you… seriously, doing well at Berkeley is NOT THAT HARD. </p>

<p>Sure, you will have to study your ass off at times, but every MOTIVATED freshman science major wannabe I met during my freshman year at Berkeley ended up doing decently-to-excellently at Berkeley with a science degree in hand, and all have very nice jobs or are attending reputable grad/professional schools.</p>

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<p>Who’s this Cal alum that is in grad school at MIT?</p>

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<p>I never said that it wasn’t * possible * to go to a top grad school out of Cal. I am simply saying that plenty of Cal students won’t. </p>

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<p>Well, I guess it all hinges on what you mean by ‘not that hard’ or ‘motivated’, or ‘nice jobs’.</p>

<p>But let me put to you guys this way. The starting salary for bio grads nationwide in 2005 was 31.2k. The starting salary for Berkeley MCB grads in 2005 was 33.6k, which is, frankly, not that much more, especially when you consider that obviously a disproportionate number of Berkeley grads will work in the Bay Area, which is an expensive place to live. Hence, while Berkeley is supposed to be a top science school (it’s certainly supposed better than the vast majority of the 2000+ 4 year colleges in the US), the MCB grads don’t make much more than the average bio student, especially when you factor in the cost-of-living. </p>

<p>“According to the National Association of Colleges and Employers, beginning salary offers in July 2005 averaged $31,258 a year for bachelor’s degree recipients in biological and life sciences”</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos047.htm#earnings[/url]”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos047.htm#earnings&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;
<a href=“http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MCB.stm[/url]”>http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MCB.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>So it begs the question - if Berkeley science graduates were really so good, then why don’t employers pay them more? We can also look reverse the burden and ask, if these graduates are so good, why don’t they demand to get paid more? Berkeley MCB grads are getting paid only 7% more than the average bio grad nationwide, and I think we can all agree that cost of living in the Bay Area is greater than 7% more expensive compared to nationwide.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I think I should add that it’s almost certainly easier to get into Stanford for a master’s degree than it is to get into Stanford for undergrad, just like it is widely understood than it is easier to get into Harvard or MIT for a master’s degree than it is to get into those schools for undergrad. This has led to the strongly held notion at MIT that the grad students at MIT are not as good as the MIT undergrads (the exception of course being those grad students who were * themselves * former MIT undergrads). This is a notion that has been expressed numerous times on the MIT board by undergrads and grads alike. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, having said that, it bears mention that plenty of Berkeley students still can’t get into one of these programs, but instead end up having to settle for lesser graduate programs. Like Cal-State Hayward. Like Claremont Graduate School. But hey, at least they got into a graduate school. Plenty of others don’t even manage to get into grad school at all. </p>

<p>I tend to judge schools not by how well its top students are doing, because the top students at any school will always do well. Rather, I judge schools by how well the * worst * students are doing. Certainly the worst students at Berkeley aren’t getting top jobs or going to top grad schools. Heck, they may not even be able to graduate at all.</p>

<p>“Who’s this Cal alum that is in grad school at MIT?”</p>

<p>I don’t want to call anyone out, but we both know who that Cal alum is.</p>

<p>“I tend to judge schools not by how well its top students are doing, because the top students at any school will always do well. Rather, I judge schools by how well the * worst * students are doing. Certainly the worst students at Berkeley aren’t getting top jobs or going to top grad schools. Heck, they may not even be able to graduate at all.”</p>

<p>Yes, but this debate is about where to go for undergrad–stanford or Cal–which assumes that the student got into both. So if someone is smart enough to get into stanford then they’re probably a good student and would do well at Cal. Unless of course you’re implying that stanford is easy and Cal is difficult, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth.</p>

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<p>I certainly have no idea what you’re talking about when you refer to a Cal alum who is in grad school at MIT. </p>

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<p>I’m ‘implying’ that life is unpredictable and you never know what’s going to happen. Specifically, not all students who come into Berkeley as good students stay that way. I’ve personally seen quite a few formerly excellent students lose their way at Berkeley - i.e. get caught up in the partying lifestyle, meets their first serious boyfriend/girlfriend which then consumes all their time, has serious problems with homesickness or other adjustment issues, and a host of other problems. </p>

<p>Life is complicated and a lot of things can happen to you. But Berkeley doesn’t seem to care about that. You found out, on the night before a major exam, that your first serious girlfriend in your whole life had cheated on you? Berkeley doesn’t care. The house that you live in gets flooded, suffering major roof damage during a major storm during exams week? Again, Berkeley doesn’t care. You have to fly out to a secondary-job interview for your dreamjob, forcing you to miss a midterm exam? Again, Berkeley doesn’t care. These were all real-life cases of people that I actually knew back in the old days. In each case, all 3 people got F’s on their exams. In the case of the first guy, he actually ended up on academic probation at the end of the semester (the other 2 guys had solid enough GPA’s to avoid probation).</p>

<p>The difference with Stanford is that Stanford tries to take care of the students who are doing poorly. Not Berkeley. Like I’ve said in other threads, Berkeley’s attitude is that if you’re doing well, great, but if you’re not doing well, that’s your problem.</p>

<p>“I tend to judge schools not by how well its top students are doing, because the top students at any school will always do well. Rather, I judge schools by how well the * worst * students are doing. Certainly the worst students at Berkeley aren’t getting top jobs or going to top grad schools. Heck, they may not even be able to graduate at all.”</p>

<p>The worst students don’t do well anywhere.</p>

<p>“Life is complicated and a lot of things can happen to you. But Berkeley doesn’t seem to care about that. You found out, on the night before a major exam, that your first serious girlfriend in your whole life had cheated on you? Berkeley doesn’t care. The house that you live in gets flooded, suffering major roof damage during a major storm during exams week? Again, Berkeley doesn’t care. You have to fly out to a secondary-job interview for your dreamjob, forcing you to miss a midterm exam? Again, Berkeley doesn’t care.”</p>

<p>Stanford cares about your girlfriend?</p>

<p>“I certainly have no idea what you’re talking about when you refer to a Cal alum who is in grad school at MIT.”</p>

<p>My bad. I thought you went to grad school at MIT. Guess not.</p>

<p>The CS program in L&S is no longer impacted. It was announced in CS61A last semester.</p>

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<p>I would say that the worst students at other schools do better than the worst students at Berkeley. Like I said before, it’s almost impossible to flunk out of Stanford. But it is very possible to flunk out of Berkeley. I strongly suspect that plenty of people I know who flunked out of Berkeley would have actually graduated from Stanford. They might have graduated with mediocre grades, they might have taken more than 4 years to graduate, but at least they would have graduated. Their problem was not a lack of intelligence, but more had to do with lack of maturity related to inexperience with life issues (i.e. girlfriend issues). But Berkeley doesn’t caer about that. You’re psychologically devestated because you just broke up with your first girlfriend because you found out she cheated on you, and so you do poorly on the exam? Berkeley doesn’t care. That’s your problem. </p>

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<p>Stanford cares about * YOU *, or at least more so than Berkeley does. Essentially, Stanford has more safety nets to protect you when you run into problems of life. See above. </p>

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<p>I am not a MIT grad student.</p>

<p>“Like I said before, it’s almost impossible to flunk out of Stanford. But it is very possible to flunk out of Berkeley. I strongly suspect that plenty of people I know who flunked out of Berkeley would have actually graduated from Stanford.”</p>

<p>You strongly suspect?</p>

<p>Maybe. </p>

<p>My nephew’s roommate was tossed out of Stanford a few days before school even started. He was there and then he was gone. Some kind of behavior issue, it was believed. He was allowed to ask to be reinstated after a year. Forgot to ask my nephew if his former roomate ever did ask to be reinstated.</p>

<p>“You’re psychologically devestated because you just broke up with your first girlfriend because you found out she cheated on you, and so you do poorly on the exam? Berkeley doesn’t care. That’s your problem.”</p>

<p>That’s life isn’t it? I don’t think the lawyer, doctor, ibanker, or mailman gets some slack because he is having trouble with his girlfriend.</p>

<p>Plus, I don’t think Stanford cares either.</p>

<p>I’m glad to see you think the worst students at Berkeley can graduate at Stanford. :)</p>

<p>^^ haha, you just voiced my thoughts exactly.</p>

<p>Frankly, I think it’d be pretty pathetic for a university to care that you’ve been devastated by a breakup, etc. A death could warrant some leeway, but not matters such as girlfriends. I doubt Stanford really cares that much, though.</p>

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<p>Ah, so you can ask to be reinstated. Try getting reinstated at Berkeley. </p>

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<p>I don’t know, is that really life? It’s life only because we’ve decided to make it that way - and it doesn’t have to be that way. For example, you brought up the issue of being a mailman - and if you work for the Civil Service, or any government job for that matter, as long as you do the required tasks, it’s difficult to get fired. Similarly, it’s almost impossible to get fired if you work in Europe. Similarly, it’s almost impossible to get fired if you’re a tenured prof, including being a tenured prof at Berkeley. I’ve certainly known plenty of tenured profs at Berkeley and other schools who are basically doing the bare minimum of requirements and nothing more, and they can’t be fired. </p>

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<p>Sure, Stanford doesn’t “care” either, in the sense that they’re certainly not going to make you ‘whole’ so that you’ll be equal to those who had no problems. Like I said, you’ll probably end up with mediocre grades, or perhaps even have to delay your graduation. But hey, at least you’ll * graduate *. </p>

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<p>Yeah, if they can * get in *, sure. But that’s the rub, isn’t it? Most of the worst Berkeley students can never get into Stanford. </p>

<p>The real issue is, if you are actually offered admission to both Berkeley and Stanford, where should you choose? The major advantage of Stanford is, frankly, it’s safer. You can run into a host of problems, and still graduate anyway. Not at Berkeley. The upshot is that Berkeley, frankly, graduates a higher percentage of low-quality students than Stanford does, particularly when you’re talking about creampuff majors.</p>

<p>It seems to me that you think that Berkeley kicking out students is a good thing. In fact, the opposite thing is true - it’s a * terrible * thing to do to anybody. Like I’ve always said, if you don’t want somebody to graduate, then simply don’t admit that person in the first place. Let that person go to another school where he has a greater chance of success. </p>

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<p>I personally would say that you’re a pretty hard-hearted person. Maybe YOU’D like to find your girlfriend cheating on you, and see how you feel about it. Like I’ve always said, I judge a society by how its worst members are doing - if even its worst members do decently, then that’s the mark of a positive society. You and dstark, on the other hand, don’t seem to care about people who are down.</p>

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<p>I don’t see why this is particularly noteworthy. The truth is, the market doesn’t really “reward” you for rigor. Berkeley graduates, on average, do not make much more than college graduates nationwide, once cost-of-living is factored in. </p>

<p><a href=“http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2006Majors.stm#salary[/url]”>http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2006Majors.stm#salary&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>So I agree that Stanford is probably easier than Berkeley if you’re a marginal student. But that’s not a reason to prefer Berkeley. If anything, it’s actually a reason to prefer Stanford. </p>

<p>Think of it this way. What if I gave you the choice of 2 jobs that both paid the same and offers the same career potential, but one has better job security than the other. Which would you choose? Be honest with yourself. Why subject yourself to career risk if you don’t have to?</p>

<p>“The upshot is that Berkeley, frankly, graduates a higher percentage of low-quality students than Stanford does, particularly when you’re talking about creampuff majors.”</p>

<p>Wait a minute. You can’t have it both ways. In one post you say that bad students can’t get through at Berkeley (which you say those same students could get through stanford) and in another you say that Berkeley graduates more bad students than stanford. Which is it? Is it too easy to get through Cal or is it too tough? And doesn’t stanford offer these same “cream puff” majors as Cal? Or is that specifially a berkeley problem?</p>

<p>sakky:</p>

<p>“You and dstark, on the other hand, don’t seem to care about people who are down.”'</p>

<p>There’s no need to make judgments on my and dstark’s moral character; I’m simply saying, a breakup (no matter how serious) shouldn’t screw you over in school.</p>

<p>Kyle, sakky’s point isn’t that the university should care whether you break up with your girlfriend. Sakky’s point is that Berkely doesn’t care if a bomb goes off near your house and kills half the people in your room – you’re still going to have to take the test. Exaggerated, yes. Basically sakky’s point is that Berkeley doesn’t recognize LIFE. I don’t know how accurate this claim is, but please understand what sakky is actually saying. </p>

<p>You singled out the girlfriend statement from all the rest. Pretty much, you are conceding with the other two statements (flying out for a dream job or having flooding problem and receiving an F on a final exam).</p>

<p>“I don’t know how accurate this claim is, but please understand what sakky is actually saying.”
lol
You don’t know how accurate Sakky’s claim is and you are asking somebody else to understand it?
lol</p>

<p>I’ll tell you how accurate it is. It’s BS.</p>

<p>" Pretty much, you are conceding with the other two statements (flying out for a dream job or having flooding problem and receiving an F on a final exam)."</p>

<p>Nobody is conceding anything. His girl friend statement was just the silliest of the three. :)</p>