<p>Some random thoughts on WashDadJr’s high school experience:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The culminating project is NOT a class project. It is in addition to a regular full course load, applying to colleges, participating in ECs, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>The CP had to be a learning experience, and had to be in a new area to the student. So, if the student was already a good musician, they couldn’t pick a music project, or if they were good at French, it must not have anything to do with French. WashDadJr was not allowed to do anything involving robots, because he was on the Robotics team sophomore and junior years.</p></li>
<li><p>It couldn’t be a service project, unless the student could make it about learning a new skill. I suppose learning to play the guitar to perform in nursing homes might have qualified, but not for the service component.</p></li>
<li><p>On top of the CP, he also had to write three “Level 5” essays. In three years of high school he was given six chances. The student would write the essay for a class, and then optionally choose to have it graded for “Level 5 credit.” If the student forgot to ask, it was not automatically evaluated for Level 5 credit. If the paper did not qualify as up to “Level 5,” they were given one chance to edit it. If the edited version did not qualify, they could not resubmit it. Of course, WDJr had no idea what “Level 5” meant as a sophomore, and neither of his “literary analysis” essays his junior year qualified for Level 5, so as a senior they wanted to pull him out of his AP Calculus BC course to sit in on the “special help” class to get the Level 5 essays written. In his regular courses he was given two chances a year to write a qualifying essay. You can only write a Level 5 essay when is assigned, the teachers were very uneven in explaining what they meant, and the first time we even heard of “Level 5” was when WashMom and I were called into a special assembly for parents of students having “Level 5” problems. The assembly was held in the school theater, and had probably 300 parents there. This is when we were told that our kids were being pulled out of their regular classes and held in the special class. … anyway, it gets worse from there. Like the teacher who made WDJr sit in “special class” for six weeks before she got around to grading a 3-page essay, and he was released to go back to his regular classes. SIX. WEEKS. When asked why we, the parents, were not told of this by letter, phone, email, or carrier pigeon before November of senior year, the assistant principal waffled. (While not a genius literary writer, WashDadJr did score 680 on the SAT II writing test and 760 on the SAT Verbal. The Level 5 stuff was just another pointless way to make up with testing what they thought they were not accomplishing in the classroom.)</p></li>
<li><p>TallSon, on the other hand, goes to another high school in the same district and there is no “Level 5” essay requirement there. Strange…</p></li>
<li><p>The WASL is just stupid. The poor teachers spend all year preparing the kids to take a test that spans a week. It is mostly of interest to principals and teachers who are rewarded based on the results.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I guess I don’t see either the culminating project or level 5 essays requirements as unreasonable. The culminating project sounds like the type of projects colleges do like to think their incoming freshmen would have been able to do. Our junior high has a portfolio assignment similar to that required for graduation from eighth grade. By the senior project in the local public schools, the kids are more than ready to give papers on research. It’s a great learning experience. </p>
<p>To compare it to AP tests, well, I’m not sure what exactly the plus is to AP scores taken in spring of senior year anyway. Most colleges love that the kids took the AP classes, and would actually withdraw acceptance if they found kids dropped their AP classes senior year. But very few give credit for AP test scores. It’s not like they actually get college credit for most of those courses, despite the course descriptions. I’d argue that in the long run, the experience of my daughter’s senior project was much more important than her three AP tests. </p>
<p>I do think the way they implemented the level 5 essays was not well thought out, and because the administration didn’t follow through on their side for two years they put an undue and unfair burden on the students their senior year. (The six week class should not have been mandatory. And they should have made it easier for them to turn in essays and have them graded outside the six chances. And if a essay did not qualify for level 5, they should have detailed why it did not qualify, so the next one would. And yes, if a student had no essays qualified after sophomore year the parents should have been notified then.)</p>
<p>It looks like the individual school districs in WA are at will to set their own guidelines for the project, as long as the general state ones are adhered to. Someone mentioned mountain climbing. Nope, not permitted! D’s top project choices were dismissed as being too risky, and this put a huge damper on her CP enthusiasm.</p>
<p>"High Risk Activities/Projects Excluded
This list is designed to help identify topics not acceptable for projects. This list is not intended to be wholly exclusive or exhaustive. Project topics not listed below are still subject to rejection if the school or District determines the project to be high-risk or otherwise potentially unsafe:
Airplane flying, hang gliding, helicopters, bungee jumping, hot air balloons, parachuting, and sky diving or any other feet in the air projects.
Auto racing, demolition contests, motorcycle and go-cart races, stunting and tractor pulls.
Activities involving watercraft over 26 feet in length.
The use of any raft, tube, or other vessel used for navigating white water streams, and any jet ski or other similar motorized personal watercraft designed to carry two or fewer persons.
Water sports (swimming, canoeing, kayaking powerboat racing, water skiing, sailing, rafting, shark chumming, scuba diving, snorkeling, etc).
Mountain climbing, spelunking, rappelling, wilderness survival or search and rescue.
Horseback riding or training of horses, pack animal trips, snake handling, managing or working with uncaged wild animals.
In-line skating, skateboarding or bicycling (including bicycle racing).
Weapons (including the making of or use of weapons). This includes paint-balling, Airsoft, archery, knives, swords, etc.
Chemicals (including the unsafe use of chemicals in experiments, the use of dangerous or explosive chemicals, or the use of chemicals to create an explosive device).
Body modification (including tattooing, piercing, branding, or ingesting performance enhancing drugs, etc).
Athletics not WIAA approved such as high impact aerobics, archery, martial arts, boxing, mud or Jello wrestling, flag/touch football, snow boarding, or skiing.
Projects that include activities not permitted under minor labor laws. These are listed under WAC 296-125-030."</p>
<p>And yes, WashDad, WASL is stupid. I also love the “one step forward, two steps back” tango that our legislators are playing with the math portion of this test. If they had not done anything with the math WASL, close to one half of WA kids would have failed the graduation requirements!</p>
<p>I guess it is up to districts and schools how to interpret.</p>
<p>Some schools here- have been doing “CP” for an 8th grade project that involves job shadowing etc. A friends daugher decided she * didn’t * want to be a vet after he convinced her it was a lot of stress for not as much par/respect as an MD.
My daughters middle school, problematic though it was, did have several ( required) opportunities to do presentations. A family history project that was quite in depth and was presented at family history night- quite an accomplishment for someone who hated attention so much she refused birthday celebrations.
She also had to research someone ( who was not American) and present a “one man show” for 10 minutes, in costume.
She forbade me to attend as it would make her too self concious, but I snuck in and out of the auditorium and she did a fanastic job.
I really couldn’t beleive it.
( She was Jane Goodall- which was especialy cool, since we also had an opportunity to meet her, when she gave a talk @ sisters school for Roots and Shoots)</p>
<p>I think everyone should be taught public speaking skills. No not everyone is going to be a salesman, but if you ever apply for a job, you have to be comfortable with speaking & be able to sell your ideas/self.</p>
<p>There is a lot of value to things that we can teach in a school setting besides things that are going to show up on a college application.</p>
<p>Emeraldkity, D school did a pre-CP project (I believe also a state requirement) in 9th grade. Theirs was MUN, and they had to represent a country and take on some issue of international importance (mine did something about OPEC control of oil prices). They did oral presentations and the whole nine yards. It was pretty fun and not stressful at all, since it was still 9th grade! However, a major “project” smack in the middle of college applications is a source of major stress, and since there are so much uncertanties about what to do, everyone is running around as chickens with the heads cut off! BTW, state guidelines specify that CP has to be done in the 12th grade and outside of classroom time, and I wish our stupid district would take them not so literally!</p>
<p>Jane Goodall - that was a pretty cool choice!</p>
<p>Opie, we didn’t do those sorts of internships because we were a college prep school, but if you’d wanted to I really do think it would have been fine. But my point is that you can try out jobs you don’t want as well as one’s you think you’ll end up in. (Now my friend who has spent much of her adult life modeling in art classes - should she have done that for a high school internship?) ;)</p>
<p>emeraldkity, our headmistress once joked that she thought one of the primary benefits of the Co-Curriculum program was the number of girls who learned that they didn’t want to be vets!</p>
<p>PS My little brother once babysat Goodall’s son Grub.</p>
<p>I know the state has pretty stupid guidelines.
For instance- * music* courses- do not count toward vocational requirements for graduation.
@ Garfield- music is a huge part of students lives. Clarence Acox ( jazz instructor) is a professional musician- Jimi Hendrix & Quincy Jones, also professional musicans. Just for a couple.</p>
<p>I think bunsenburner and I share the same point. The CP gets in the way of college app time. The time is better spent filling out college applications, scholarship opportunties and anything else that either gets a kid in the door of a university or helps get money to do so. The rest is simply bs. </p>
<p>We were fortunate to not have to deal with this silly thing during my kids HS years. It would have been completed of course if required, but simply something of an obstruction to getting into the schools we were interested in. At that point in life, you were either helping my kid get accepted to a school or helping get money, if you are doing anything else you are in the way. I hope you all understand my point. By senior year, if it doesn’t help the bottom line (and the bottom line is college) it shouldn’t be there. </p>
<p>Now I know that half the kids don’t attend college, but anybody care to guess how much a CP helps those kids? ;)</p>
<p>I agree-
But apparently it is up the district what parameters to put in place for the CP ( according to the state website), so I would take it up with them.</p>
<p>I also feel that if done well a CP can do a lot to help kids who don’t go on to college right after graduation.
By using it to show skills that they can transfer to the workplace, it gives them a strong piece to put in their resume</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is from the Marysville website.
</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I don’t see anything about the project being required in 12th grade by the district. Perhaps that is school related requirement.
<p>Wow…one silly thing that the Texas Legislature hasn’t thought of yet!</p>
<p>I swear that the Texas Legislature is doing everything in its power to ruin our public schools. I’m a strong advocate of public schools, but if our kids weren’t so old, I’d be seriously considering private. Thank goodness they only meet every other year.</p>
<p>sorry em, you believe in a cp fine, more power to you. I don’t. To me, it is a waste of time. </p>
<p>I am major impressed that you would be so concerned about my opinion that you would search the district website. Wow, I didn’t know I carried that much weight with you…ohh… but does it change my opinion, no. </p>
<p>It is a waste of time thought up by another consultant who gets paid to convince you it’s “needed”, Is it truly needed compared to filling out college applications and doing enterance essays. I know of not one college or university that requires review of somebody’s CP anymore then they require the kids WASL scores… As much as OPI would like you to “believe” it’s vital. </p>
<p>As I said by senior year in hs, stuff like this is in the way and totally unnessary. It’s a gimmick. Boeing doesn’t ask for it for airframe assembly work, City light or any other employer for blue collar work, colleges don’t ask for it. </p>
<p>While I am sure you could list it on your resume or college enterance papers. You could also list your membership in the world of warcraft network. ;)</p>
<p>as far as when the requirement is filled? since there is no comment about being senior year, how about with the other half of the day during kindergarden? </p>
<p>The day you can show me a school says “why yes your CP is why we took you over the other guy.” I’ll buy. Till then, nada.</p>
<p>Our hs has a “senior project” that can be done senior or junior years. I also think it is a waste of time, but at least our students can do it junior year. (I don’t know if it is more of a pia to do it during junior year college visits or during senior year applications ) They seem like just another project to me. The kids have been doing science experiments, research papers, powerpoint presentations, volunteer work, independent studies, etc, since middle school. To say that these projects are the culmination of anything is just false. They are not valuable to college-bound students and they are not impressive to employers of those going into the work force. JMHO from my neck of the woods. (Perhaps projects are more impressive elsewhere?)</p>
<p>Oh, gosh! I taught in WA middle and high schools until six years ago and saw this coming…worked in a small district that was supposedly in the vanguard of this educational innovation. I’m with Opie, WashDad, and lkf725 on this one. I’m glad to hear of the exceptions where parents feel this was a profitable use of educational resources and their kids’ time, but I think they are just that–exceptions. Why not use that time instead for deeper learning in the core subjects or electives that kids care about, or if enrichment is desired, something like a National History Day project that encourages real scholarly research and an analytical presentation of findings? I had seventh graders in NHD who did more meaningful work than the senior projects I’ve seen.</p>
<p>Incidentally, this past summer we visited with a niece who had just graduated as an honor student at one of the “better” 4A schools in the Spokane area, and they were required to do the project, with teachers insisting that this is what the colleges are looking for now. She was surprised to hear from my D that there were no such requirements at any of the respected LACs she applied to.</p>
<p>It blows my mind that volunteer hours have been removed from the list of options. Around here, many schools require a senior project, but it’s usually volunteer related or charity related. Students have to come up with a rough outline of why they chose to volunteer in this or that capacity, but that’s about it. I think that anything beyond this is just “busy work” it’s like a math teacher who requires the kids in geometry to make up a word scramble of math words. Seniors have a mountain of responsibilities. If they want to beef up their system, REQUIRE four years of math, science, english and history.</p>
<p>But, sarahsmom, colleges don’t just want 4 years of math, science, english and history anymore. They want well-rounded kids.</p>
<p>Now. My DISTRICT requires 40 hours of Community Service. Which is why my SLC requires 115-to help us stand out from those who’ve only done the 40. And there are some really fun ways you can earn it…for example, I’m helping my sister with AWANA (a Sunday School-type thing for young kids) and receiving 2.5 hours per week (roughly, give or take a half hour).</p>
<p>HisGrace,
I think that volunteer hours are awesome. Our kids had to do like 100 hours before they graduated from hs. I also think that students who take four years of math, science, english and history ARE well rounded. If it were up to me, the h/s day would start at nine and go until five. There would be a three week break in the summer instead of two months. All students would be required the above as well as two years of an art class or music, four years of foreign language, 150 hours of volunteer hours and they would have to play at least one sport a year.</p>
<p>But wouldn’t having guidelines that are that strict defeat the purpose of being well-rounded, because then all the kids would have the same profile?</p>
<p>It would seem that being well-rounded doesn’t necessarily conform to a “this is what well-rounded looks like.” Now, that being said, this is what my school requires:
-4 years of English
-3 years of History (with 1 year of Geography/Health freshman year, so really four)
-3 years of Math
-3 years of Science (really only 2, but they strongly recommend that you take 3 and I took 3)
-1 year Fine/Performing Art
-1 year College Preperatory Elective
-2 years Physical Education/Dance/Sport/ROTC</p>
<p>I’ve surpassed all those, plus I played golf for 3 years. I just feel like requiring that much of students would make them all look the same and, again, defeat the purpose of trying to make them well-rounded.</p>
<p>Interesting point, HisGrace. I guess IMO a solid background in the “basics” gives a student a foundation. With a solid foundation, we are free to differenciate and explore all of the options in front of us. A solid foundation can act as a spring board and build self esteem, so that we have the courage and inspiration to branch out and to appreciate the world around us. My kids are all very much individuals, but they were required to follow my “core curriculum” even if the school did not. One D loves math and science and is majoring in computer science, her sister loves musical theatre, my son lives for sports of all kinds. All have many friends and play a musical instrument. They were sometimes annoyed by my H and my “requirements”, but it did not deter them from following their passions, it just required that they be good at managing their time.</p>
<p>I guess I’ve become a pessimist going to such a large school (about 4,500 students), because I feel that some kids just don’t care and won’t follow that rigorous of a curriculum. I’ve seen many kids fail to graduate just because they didn’t have their 40 hours of Community Service.</p>
<p>Also, I’m glad your kids are happy, but I also think the motivated kids can get there on their own. For example.</p>
<p>My sister and I. My parents always just told us to do what we wanted (within reason), and my sister and I found our niches and are extremely happy. My sister is attending a CC and is planning on transferring to Vanguard later, while it’s likely I’ll head straight to a University.</p>
<p>I just think that each individual is too different to have guidelines that are that strict. You do make good points, though. :)</p>
<p>HisGraceFillsMe, Your points are good too and I understand that not everyone is motivated to succeed. I don’t understand how anyone could fail to complete HS because they didn’t want to do 40 hours of volunteer work. It’s truly beyond my realm of understanding.
I believe in having high expectations for young people in general. I think that to do less can truly do damage. If we don’t expect kids to succeed, we don’t believe in them, we do them a disservice.
My middle D is not a natural math student. She has to work twice as hard as her sister and declared herself as “dumb at math” in fourth grade. We told her that we recognized that this was not her “thing”, but that we would not except it as an excuse to give up. We told her that she was very smart and that we really believed that if she worked hard, and kept trying that she’d succeed. Her teacher told her the same. She kept trying and working and finished four years of hs math quite successfully. She had to work harder than all of her peers in her AP Calc. class, but she also told us that she was probably twice as proud of herself than any of her peers! It felt good to work really hard for something and then do well.<br>
I realize that not everyone has the resources that my kids have had, but in my opinion, low expectations are the plague of our public schools systems. I also think that having long breaks in the summer is a practice that dates back to the mid 1800’s and needs to be eliminated. Unfortunately, this will not happen anytime soon, but that’s a whole different topic!
Anyway, I’m really glad that you and your sister are motivated and filled with God’s grace. You are truly blessed.</p>
I think Fifi did too. Or maybe that was Flo</p>
</p>
) They seem like just another project to me. The kids have been doing science experiments, research papers, powerpoint presentations, volunteer work, independent studies, etc, since middle school. To say that these projects are the culmination of anything is just false. They are not valuable to college-bound students and they are not impressive to employers of those going into the work force. JMHO from my neck of the woods. (Perhaps projects are more impressive elsewhere?)</p>