MLK made remarks along those lines in “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” decades ago.
You mean that side that encourages police officers to use excessive force (“don’t be too nice”) and act like a mob that happens to be in uniform, rather than do their job professionally with the minimum amount of force needed to protect and serve all people in the area that they patrol?
Count me in with those who would like to see the statues in question taken down by whatever government agency is in charge — in response to citizen demands.
I’m not in favor of people taking it upon themselves, because, as mentioned, a mob mentality can spring up and get out of hand leading to civil unrest & unintended consequences & damage.
Statue removal can also be ceremonial, like a ribbon cutting. I’d rather see it orderly, and safe. Not DIY.
JMO!
If bringing down statues that are painful triggers in an orderly fashion will help promote some unity in our country, I am all for it. The divisive chasm is getting wider and wider and more and more destructive. Any step towards healing, on all sides, is beneficial.
Well when they start taking down statues of Washington etc. there is no healing, only moral preening. I fully expect some protestors to try to dynamite Mt. Rushmore now. I don’t like Trump at all and I didn’t vote for him but he’s correct in identifying the warring narratives about American history being played out now. Are we basically a noble yet flawed enterprise, still evolving, or are we irredeemably flawed and terrible, like Nazi Germany? I am frankly afraid of the iconoclasm and violent revolutionary fervor and I don’t think it’s justified. It really turns me off and I would support a liberal politician who calls it out. But no one has the courage.
@warblersrule – thank you for quoting that masterful essay by MLK, Jr. His words perfectly capture many of the comments here. I am fairly sure that the same, follow the rule of law folks, with such apparently good intentions, would not have been part of the minority of folk who supported his use of direct action, just as it was not supported then by most people.
I would ask the moderates here to be honest with yourselves and consider how you, living in the 50s and 60s, would have judged the things he did that put him in that jail from which he wrote that letter. Most people did NOT support his actions–would you have been in the minority that did?
Also, I am so tired of, and disappointed by, weak slippery slope “where do we draw the line” arguments here, by smart posters who should know better. We draw lines every day. There is no place in society where we don’t discern and decide what is acceptable and necessary, from that which is not. That’s just a non-argument meant to shut down thoughtful debate.
Should the Independence Day be abolished and not celebrated at all as some call for it? Asking a serious question. Do you fly your flag with pride or are you ashamed of even putting it out?
I have a flag out. What is your point? Again–slippery slope.
Historians describe a fallacy called “presentism” in which we apply the standards and mores of the “now” to the past. None of us can say what we would have done in 1860 or 1960. It’s a form of cheap moral narcissism IMHO to elevate ourselves over our predecessors. There are always stark moral choices to be made. But at the present time, I can honestly say that since no one is being carted off to death camps based on ethnicity, we are talking about issues of equity in law enforcement. I also think that it is a waste of time to discuss all police departments as equal. Minneapolis, for example, has been a notably dysfunctional police department for several years. Whether it is typical of all police departments everywhere is highly debatable.
Confederate statues. Out. No problem at all. Change names of teams. Sure. Who cares really?
Columbus means a lot to the Italian people, I have no feeling either way quite frankly. The Vikings were probably here long before his journey.
Its how many are conflating these straightforward issues with other more complex and important historical figures. It is bit more complicated.
Malcolm X had his issues. MLK has had some as well. But their lives In toto mean so much more than the dissection of their human frailties and mistakes.
The founders created a unique framework in human history. We didn’t live up to that framework for quite some time but it was revolutionary, excuse the pun.
Go to a swearing in ceremony for new citizens and ask them if it’s different here than nearly anywhere in the world.
The concept of all people being equal in terms of standing before government and inalienable rights that supersede and predate rights ordained by the state are remarkable in their insight and ability to withstand these moments.
Abolitionists. Grant. WW 2 cemetery. Etc. that’s just an example of those without any real understanding of history or their real intentions with the vigilante style approach.
That being said, any group that delivers mob justice even when perhaps morally correct create very unhealthy precedents. Lincoln spoke of this at length.
Vigilantes even when the criminal is clearly due justice would be universally condemned. What’s the difference here. People are being injured and violence is not the answer.
Like it or not, the decision to support civil rights requires and demands the adherence to the rule of law. It won’t work without it.
It also does not require one to believe this is a inherently evil nation that requires pushing cntrl alt delete on the nation based on the injustices of the past.
It’s a wonderful structure and we need renovate some rooms. We also need to invite more people to feel feel comfortable living in it.
Not burning it to the ground.
You know who did support King’s arguments, @Garland? The US Supreme Court, which has for the last 70 years or so has spent a lot of time worried about the constitutional rights of minorities while preserving the rule of law.
I am always astonished that presumably educated adults do not always support governments based on rules of law rather than men, which along with a system of checks and balances, was the most extraordinary contribution of American independence.
I would not dynamite it but I do agree with the members of the Ogala nation (from whom we stole the Black Hills) that the faces should be removed
Carving the mountain desecrated a sacred space.
When it comes to statues that were put up during the Jim Crow era as symbols of white supremacy, I think the words of Malcom X rather than MLK are more appropriate.
They need to come down “by any means necessary.”
But I do support leaving statues on battlefields where they were put to identify specific units or moments. For example I love the Virginia monument at Gettysburg is an amazing sculpture overlooking the path of Pickett’s Charge but would find it totally inappropriate if it were plopped down on Monument Avenue in Richmond.
Many Civil war statues were erected during the 1920’s, which was a period of nativisim, Jim Crow, resurgence of the KKK, with lots of anti-immigrant sentiments.
They were placed to remind people of color ‘to remain in their place’, to express it kindly.
We’re not talking about statues erected immediately following the Civil War.
So have sit-ins at your local mayor, county judge, or city council’s office demanding that the statues be lawfully removed. Organize a removal party if you want, with speakers and choirs and anything else ( with a permit, of course). File a lawsuit in local court challenging the maintenance of the statue. But do not incite a mob to pull them down unless you are equally happy to watch the MLK memorial pulled down, too. We have a process for a reason.
Yep. The United Daughters of the Confederacy weren’t just trying to honor the soldiers of the Confederacy but were pushing white supremacy and The Lost Cause.
IMHO, these statues have no place in an enlightened society.
Should the Pyramids, Coliseum, and religious sites of the old world come down too ? just about any other historical site the world over? Take a look at the contested areas confiscated to erect these world renowned sites and the work force employed to complete them. It’s not a pretty picture but it’s part of a historical context we all should be able to agree on.
War statues for confederate generals are not the same thing. They need to go.
The others are different. We are a young nation so are our historical references.
What’s the end game and does it al really help with education, wealth and health care gaps that matter in the real world.
Manhattan should be in this list too.
California and the names so many of its cities. The atrocities of the Spanish conquistadors are notable.
Civil war symbolism is one thing everyone can rally around. Let’s start there for the good of the country and leave the rest to another day.
It’s clouding a clear path and combining unlike matters.
Process doesn’t work when power still rests with the ideological heirs of those that put the monuments up. I believe most southern states have laws explicitly protecting these statues so extra-legal means are the only way to take them down.
Extra legal. Is that codified into a statute somewhere or accepted doctrine in any other realm?
Think of the expansiveness of this concept and what it can mean.
There’s no such thing. It’s actually called illegal. Or vigilantism.
I don’t want the opposing side of this or any issue to see that officials aren’t following the law and have thousands of armed opponents decide that this concept of extra legal action is now acceptable if you decide it to be true…
It could go downhill very quickly. Nightmare scenario.