Steubenville

Parent Cafe
841

<p>Acelia, what about the “homely” girl? The “fat” girl? Surely you are aware that HER sexuality is derided, mocked, and scorned by many men AND women.</p>

<p>And what is beautiful, anyway? What is fat? Who gets to say? Who gets to define you?</p>

<p>We can ask the very same questions about being “smart.”</p>

<p>What we are talking about is interacting with others as WHOLE PEOPLE, with a body, mind, and spirit that is innately worthy of respect. (And I believe that what Zoosermom is suggesting is that real “sexuality” is not the same thing as the outward presentation of one’s appearance, but something deeper and more intimate.)</p>

<p>I don’t mean to sound as if I don’t appreciate your contribution here; I do.</p>

842

<p>There are very few actions we take in life, if any at all, that don’t carry some risk. For most of these, like climbing out of bed in the morning, the risk is so small that we seldom give it a thought. For others we decide the risk is acceptable and so we take the action anyway. When you board an airplane, you aren’t saying to yourself “I consent to die.” You ARE saying, whether you realize it or not, “I consent to boarding this plane despite the risk that this plane could crash for some reason, and if it does, I likely won’t come out alive.” Various secondary circumstances will change our assessment of the risk entailed in an activity. Taking a shower in the morning on an ordinary day will be a different risk from taking one when you are sick and dizzy from a virus.</p>

<p>Take skydiving, and think how you feel about it in general. Now see if you feel differently as the facts change. How do you feel about your 26 year old son doing it? Your 18 year old daughter? Your 18 year old daughter who is teminally ill? Your 85 year old grandfather? Your 85 year old grandmother with severe osteoporosis? Your 26 year old daughter who is 5 months pregnant with your first grandchild?</p>

<p>Certain risky activities we decide are sufficiently necessary or sufficiently desirable that we work on making them as safe as possible so we can still do them. We’ve added seat belts and air bags to our vehicles, for example. I personally wouldn’t decide that race car driving was worth the risk entailed, but you might.</p>

<p>We get angry about an accident or crime when we think a loved one has taken on an unnecessary or unacceptable risk, or failed to take reasonable safety precautions. The definitions of “unnecessary,” “unacceptable,” and “reasonable” will vary by person and we should refrain from berating each other over our different personal boundaries. I, for one, would be rather angry if I had warned my son not to go to Mexico for spring break because I think the country is too dangerous, but he went anyway, was robbed of his passport and money, and now I have to be calling the embassy and wiring him money. Maybe another parent would say, “Poor baby. Americans ought to be able to go to Mexico and not get robbed!”</p>

<p>Where entitlement enters in, in my opinion, is that our kids have enjoyed more peace, prosperity and freedom than probably any other generation. Unfortunately, for some people, those benefits have produced a feeling that they can and indeed SHOULD be able to do whatever they want, wherever they want, and whenever they want. For example, some kids want to be able to pierce and tattoo themselves but yet not have a boss reject them for a job due to appearance. Others may want to be able to drink while legally underage at the frat known as the college’s “animal house” and suffer no negative consequences. Our society has become so diverse values-wise that we as parents can’t even agree on what kids should or shouldn’t be “free” to do, and that has caused some animosity on this thread.</p>

<p>All the same, we need to teach wise decision-making and risk assessment to our teenagers. They need to know when a risk is at an acceptable level and when it’s not, based on our values. Our values may differ, but hopefully enough of us can agree on a few things to stand up against certain dangerous societal trends and attitudes. I raised the issue of cougars a few posts back, because I think it points to an alarming development in our culture that accepts and even admires sexually predatory behavior to a certain degree. That has got to change.</p>

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<p>Skydiving is not something I’ve ever been interested in, but last year I discovered ( after the fact)that my D went up for her 22nd birthday. She loves her some adrenaline!
( she also drove in India when she was 18, even though she doesn’t have a liscense. I overheard her talking about that)</p>

<p>I disagree with this.
*We get angry about an accident or crime when we think a loved one has taken on an unnecessary or unacceptable risk, or failed to take reasonable safety precautions. *
My D had her phone & wallet stolen during a big festival in India soon after she arrived.
I have no way of knowing if she was careless, she was 18 & it was a big party, so she probably was. But why would I be angry? I was concerned & I helped her get replacements, but anger doesn’t seem like a healthy reaction.
:confused:</p>

844

<p>TheGFG, you make some good points, except that some of the analogies you use aren’t really comparable. Pilots don’t TRY to crash planes. Parachute manufacturers don’t TRY to make parachutes that only open 50% of the time. Here we are talking about VOLITION on the part of the would-be rapist. Both parties to a rape are equally human, and yes–people have different values. But plenty of teens and young adults get drunk at parties without raping each other. Being in a social setting with friends–with or without alcohol–should presume a certain level of safety and familiarity. And to attach more risk to the young women there than the men seems to let the perpetrators off the hook.</p>

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<p>Are you kidding me? What country do you live in?
[Tomas</a> Young, Dying Iraq War Veteran, Pens ‘Last Letter’ To Bush, Cheney On War’s 10th Anniversary](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>Tomas Young, Dying Iraq War Veteran, Pens 'Last Letter' To Bush, Cheney On War's 10th Anniversary | HuffPost Latest News)</p>

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<p>Not saying life is perfect now, but in your opinion EK, which American generation has had it better than this one? Maybe the post-Vietnam baby boomers?</p>

<p>Some pilots do deliberately crash planes. It has happened and it’s also a risk you take, however small.</p>

<p>Here I am making the assumption that we are having a discussion among adults about rape and rape prevention. There is a world of difference between talking in the abstract among ourselves on a message board about risks and prevention, than there is addressing those same issues with a real live 16 year old rape victim after she’s been victimized. Love and compassion are the only acceptable responses to hurt and trauma.</p>

<p>But imagine for a second that your daughter had lied to you, had gone somewhere she knew she wasn’t allowed to go and had done things she knew she shouldn’t have, but made it through completely unscathed. Would you be angry at her then? Most of us probably would be. But none of us are such monsters that we’d scream at her once she was lying on a hospital bed or curled up in the fetal position in emotional pain.</p>

<p>It seems to me by how nastily some people respond to me that they must see me as some cruel monster. I’m done here.</p>

847

<p>GFG, I’m curious if you think the legal system should differentiate crime based on the degree or risk assessment and prevention the victim displayed. Is breaking and entering more okay if there was no alarm system in place? If a girl goes back to a football player’s room is that more risky then going back to the room of a boy from the chess club? Or should she never be alone with a male?
I think we all get that we want our kids to have common sense about risks. They shouldn’t count their cash on a subway platform for example. But the crime is the same if they are robbed. I get a sense that you don’t feel it’s the same crime if you can see where they went wrong. To me, that is excusing the perpetrator’s bad acts not just blaming the victim. We have laws to set an expected standard of behavior, no matter what opportunity presents itself.</p>

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<p>TheGFG, I don’t think anyone sees you as a “cruel monster” at all. In fact, you have given me (and probably others) much to think about. Obviously this is a fraught issue that is personal for many of us, and it brings out a lot of emotion.</p>

<p>electronblue: I think you are saying what I just tried to say, only better. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Well said, electron blue!</p>

850

<p>Acelia, I would you to know where I am coming from. I have been 4’11 ish and around 100 pounds witha natural 32DD since I was 12 years old. In my younger years I was a pretty girl who attracted a lot of attention long before I was able to understand why or to know how to protect myself. I believe that every woman has to center herself with regard to her own appearance and also to set her own boundaries in terms of her sexuality. As consolation said, that is a much deeper thing than outward sexiness. Not the same thing at all.</p>

<p>I always knew, based on painful experience, that certain articles of clothing were like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Should I have been able to wander the streets at 12 bouncing around in a tube top likemeveryone else at 12 and be safe? YES! But I couldn’t and I was never physically strong enough to protect myself. My personal theory is that a group of young women can be much freer to let loose than a woman alone. In a perfect world, we could each do what we want whenever we want, but actions do have consequences. Which is why I think young women should consider in themselves what outcome they want from various actions. It is fine to go out and be sexy. But have an ongoing conversation with yourself about your boundaries. Acknowledge that the attention can be fun and exciting, but ahead of time decide how far and with whom it will go so you are always in control and aware of your stop button.</p>

<p>We protect our physical selves in all kinds of ways all the time. If there is a crazy person screaming and threatening on the subway platform, walk away. If you are walking down the street and someone tries to lure you to his car, step into the store, if you are at a party where the vibe is out of control, leave. Every woman will meet dangerous men from time to time, every woman. If you haven’t had the conversation with yourself ahead of time, you should.</p>

<p>I highly recommend “the Gift of Fear” by Gavin de Becker to every woman. You should be free to wear and do whatever you want within the law, but in the real world sometimes a predator will cross your path and you need to be ready.</p>

851

<p>Not sure if this has been posted before, but I was interested in the perspective of these rape prevention tips:</p>

<p>Ten rape prevention tips:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.</p></li>
<li><p>When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.</p></li>
<li><p>If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.</p></li>
<li><p>If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.</p></li>
<li><p>When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.</p></li>
<li><p>Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.</p></li>
<li><p>Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.</p></li>
<li><p>Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.</p></li>
<li><p>Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.</p></li>
<li><p>Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>[Rape</a> prevention tips | Can You Relate?](<a href=“http://canyourelate.org/2011/05/24/rape-prevention-tips/]Rape”>Rape prevention tips – Can You Relate?)</p>

852

<p>I never, ever felt the need to lie to my parents about anything like where I was or what I was doing. Fear of punishment was never something that crossed my mind when I needed my parents to come get me if I was doing something that left me vulnerable. I hope my kids feel the same way and are never in some of the scenarios described here.</p>

853

<p>I always tell my kids that there are some actions for which a bad outcome is statistically too likely for comfort. As an example, there is a bar which is notorious as a hangout for young men of a particular occupation. It doesn’t have a great dj or special drinks or fabulous food. It has a punk crowd with frequent arrests for fighting, vandalism, drunk driving. As the reputation grew, women started picking other places and it became even worse. It is not a great place for women to frequent and there are plenty of other establishments right on the street where the behavior is better and the management keeps control. Personally, I think women should communicate with each other about places that are specifically dangerous and out of control and then boycott them for safety and economic reasons.</p>

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<p>[Center</a> for Problem-Oriented Policing | Problem Guides | Acquaintance Rape of College Students](<a href=“http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/2]Center”>http://www.popcenter.org/problems/rape/2)</p>

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<p>I don’t see you as a “cruel monster,” but as someone who has yet again made the thread about you rather than the subject matter. I honestly don’t see vigorous disagreement with your position as anything “nasty” or personal, but apparently you disagree.</p>

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<p>And from the same link:</p>

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<p>I’m not GFG, but I think I can speak for her when I answer that of course risky behavior on the part of a victim doesn’t mitigate the criminal’s behavior, and should have no effect on his punishment. I have a friend who couch-surfs with strangers when she travels abroad. I think that’s an idiotic thing to do, but if G-d forbid anyone harmed her, that person would be absolutely responsible for his actions.</p>

<p>It is problematic, however, when in our laudable desire to put the blame where it belongs - and to reverse too many generations of “she must have been asking for it” and other forms of victim blaming - we criticize rational efforts to help at-risk people protect themselves. If someone tells a group of girls “To reduce your risk of being attacked, walk in groups if you are going to be out late at night, don’t listen to headphones, and don’t drink to the point of impairment,” that isn’t perpetuating rape culture, it is accepting the realities of life. Should we also be telling guys “don’t rape?” Of course. But in the meantime, it is irresponsible not to give women the tools to defend themsleves.</p>

<p>That doesn’t mean that this is going to work in every case. Many people do everything “right” and still get raped, just like many people who live healthy lives still die young of illness. There are also limits to what it is reasonable to expect someone to do to protect herself. Telling a woman not to listen to headphones if she is walking alone late at night strikes me as reasonable. Telling a woman to cut her hair short doesn’t, and telling a woman not to wear jeans or short skirts is both damaging and, probably, not even helpful. But there is no reason to take common-sense precautions.</p>

<p>Once a woman has become a victim, she deserves sympathy no matter what the circumstances. We don’t visit heart-attack victims and tell them they should have exercised more, and we shouldn’t tell rape victims they should have stopped after one beer or taken a cab home. But refusing to suggest preventative measures because women shouldn’t need to take them is harmful as long as we live in a world in which they do.</p>

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<p>[Why</a> the ‘nice guys commit rape too’ conversation is not helpful | Jill Filipovic | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk](<a href=“http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/18/nice-guys-commit-rape-conversation-unhelpful]Why”>Why the 'nice guys commit rape too' conversation is not helpful | Jill Filipovic | The Guardian)</p>

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<p>Yet again we can respond that no one has a problem with suggesting reasonable ways young women can protect themselves. What many of us here object to strenuously are words like “the victim bears responsibility” and other such blame terminology, which has not been in short supply in this thread.</p>

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<p>[Predator</a> Theory](<a href=“http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/]Predator”>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/)</p>

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