“Honestly, if you want to be X major and claim and reclaim it, you really ought to have a letter from a teacher in that. Not 9th or 10th grade, but recent. AP level, if possible, assuming a related course is offered (preferably a core.) If you don’t, what’s a reader supposed to think? That you didn’t understand? Oops. That you thought the teacher doesn’t like you? Oops.”
Now, see, this makes me nervous. We’re still not sure which way S19 is leaning in his college search, but we will be exploring some STEM/possible engineering options. He has straight As in his AP calc class, but can’t get a recommendation because his friend asked the teacher back in January, and it started a stampede of kids to get to her. So, by the time S went to ask her a few days later, she said she was at limit and could not write any more recommendations. So he will have to go to his 10th grade pre-calc teacher - a class in which he had some low test grades. I wonder, do AOs ever think of this kind of thing? It’s not that he has a bad relationship with a teacher - she would have been his first choice, but he got shut out by the maneuverings of another highly competitive kid, and he refuses to harass the teacher into making an exception for him.
^ If you’re applying to schools that don’t admit by major, and aren’t dead-set on one particular path, that advice IMHO is less relevant. My rec-picking advice, in the absence of college requirements to the contrary, would be teachers 1) who know you well, ideally recently and both in and out of class, 2) who teach a core (math/science/English/history-by-which-I-mean-actual-history-not-social-science/foreign language) class, and ideally taught you in that core class, 3) who can speak to your strengths.
My kid, who is sort of undecided social sciences and (due to indecision) isn’t considering any schools that admit by major, plans to ask a science teacher and a foreign language teacher, because she has good relationships with both of them. It’s possible that she won’t even take the offered AP most related to the major she’s currently thinking of indicating; even if she did, she’ll be asking for recs before that teacher has even seen her name on the class lists.
If it were my kid asking, I absolutely would not ask a 10th grade teacher just to get a math letter in. Schools understand that sometimes teachers reach capacity (or are just terrible people with no business writing rec letters, or any of a million situations in between).
I really refer to the most competitive. If he can’t get calc (and is thinking stem) what about bio, physics or chem? I’m surprised the teacher didn’t agree.
Tippy tops can review with the major in mind. It doesn’t matter if there’s, eg, a college of engineering you apply to. When the competition is fierce, it helps to have your ducks lined up. Adcoms can look for the prep (courses and activities) behind the major(s) you do state. In many cases, even Undecided needs some pattern for them to see.
No, you don’t have to take, eg, AP psych or sociology, for a social sci major. But it’s good if some activities point to the interest in peoples, cultures, behaviors, etc. And as many social sciences need analytical skills, why not an English or history teacher? IR does need foreign language skills, but that’s usually seen in the language classes taken.
For my kid? She picked on her own, and I see no reason to override her good judgement. I’d be much more likely to suggest that she manipulate her intended major, which is a trivial nothing part of the application for schools that don’t admit by major/ school, than that she pick recommenders based on that trivial nothing.
From my parent perspective, both of the teachers she picked are likely to speak to how she seeks out challenge, goes above and beyond expectations, works well with others, communicates complicated ideas well, and is at the top of the class. In history and English, she’s the kid who sits in the back, uses extra credit to keep her A and asks if she can be a group of one for all group projects. Relevance to major is not going to be helpful there. You have to consider the kid on the couch.
From my perspective as a former social science major, the hard sciences are surprisingly relevant, particularly for more-selective schools.
Oh, I’ve talked to him about it. He’s put a lot of thought into his decision. Obviously, his AP Calc teacher was his first choice. I suggested his AP Physics teacher, because he’s got straight As there too, but because his Calc teacher was at capacity, he decided his other strongest option would be his AP Lang teacher. Had he obtained the AP Calc, he was thinking of getting a recommendation from a previous English teacher he had a good personal relationship with. But now he felt he needed something in the Math/Science area as well as a teacher who could speak to who he is as a person (he’s at a big school), and his pre-calc teacher fit the bill. I guess he feels his Physics teacher doesn’t know him personally as well as his previous math teacher, and he feels like he does a fair amount of goofing off/skating by in Physics class. (Whether he does or not, I don’t know, but that’s his perception of himself). He will also get a recommendation from a teacher with whom he has had electives all through high school. Ultimately, we feel our son needs to steer this process. He’ll need more guidance and support than our parents gave us because the terrain has gotten so difficult to navigate. But, this is also a learning experience for him, so we don’t want to override his autonomy.
But yes, the problem is he probably will be targeting at least a few of the most competitive schools.
Allyphoe, as I often say, my perspective is the most competitive colleges. And there, the possible majors you state are not trivial nothings. These colleges, eg, are seeking balance in depts, picking the best and most ready, as they see it. They don’t need to “admit by major” to have this outlook. Yes, they know kids change paths. But the app is a snapshot- not just of the hs record, but the thinking.
My comments are not to dismiss your daughter, but to add some thoughts. I feel it’s often better to err on the side of caution. What we all want is for kids to feel they gave the app and supps their best shot, when they hit that Submit button.
@Trixy34 That’s absolutely the right way to go – let your son steer the process! I think the most important and valuable things that parents can do is to (1) be very, very clear about finances and parental expectations/requirements early on, and (2) guide your child to identifying and applying to some absolute safeties that he is willing to attend and that you know you can pay for. I told my daughter that I supported her efforts to apply to reach colleges, but I insisted that she get her safety app in first.
Also – I know this is hard to hear - but this is something I have observed as the parent of one child who chose to reach significantly higher than the other: the students who get into the very most competitive colleges also tend to have proactive and competitive personalities. They are “doers” who have an inner drive to get ahead which means that they habitually act like the friend who asked the calc teacher back in January for the LOR. They take initiative and act first, ahead of others.
It’s not something that you should judge your own kid adversely for — its just a fit factor that is worthy of consideration. Some kids do better in competitive environments; some kids do better in more collaborative environments. Some thrive in a fast-paced intense academic setting; some do better in a more relaxed and flexible academic environment. So something to keep in mind as well when developing the college list.
@calmom - I absolutely hear you 100%. He works very hard, and he loves to challenge himself, but I think it’s because that’s who he is. It’s never been about competing to get into a top school. It just so happens that the school that seems to appeal to him most is getting pretty high up there in the selectivity rankings. I do think some of his motivation comes from his personal competition with this kid who I’m talking about - they are actually friends, well “friends” (ha) who have a competitive dynamic going on. Actually, he probably wouldn’t be quite where he is today without that little rivalry. So, yes, he will end up where he is supposed to be, especially if we let him steer this process. I just have to remember to let go. It’s a learning experience for everybody!
@lookingforward, “the possible majors you state are not trivial nothings. These colleges, eg, are seeking balance in depts, picking the best and most ready, as they see it.” - This is an interesting point to me, I figured since HS students are young, possibly not exposed to a lot of majors, without a firm career direction, AO look at possible majors as more of a gauge by which they measure what a student has done in HS. For example, HS student applying as a Chemistry major - have you taken AP Chem, been to a science fair, taken the Chem SAT subject test, found a chemistry related internship, done everything Chem that’s available to them, etc? If so, than the AO checks the box that this HS is motivated to take advantage of his/her opportunities at this college. If not, well maybe this kid isn’t a fit for this college. BUT what I get from you comment is, this selective college measures it’s needs in a major with the stated interests of applicants and that factors into the selection process…even if the declared interest isn’t a major selection. So a Chemistry interest student might have a better shot at a selective college in a year when there are few chemistry interested students applying to that School. Put another way, applying to Harvard for Econ, Math or Bio makes acceptance even tougher as they get loads of those types of students. But a Scandinavian Language interested major might have an ‘easier’ time getting into Harvard due to the relatively small number of applicants (assuming that student can demonstrate Scandinavian language interest/skills/etc).
Just saying, lol, January of junior year is terribly early to be asking for an LoR. I’d think a school administration would set some guidelines, to avoid this very problem.
@NewEngParent Remember, I’m talking about uber selectives, with lots and lots of strong candidates.
It’s true hs kids aren’t exposed to what I call “the buffet” of things that can be studied in college. Nor do they have a concept of the variety of careers. But yes, adcoms can look at what he/she notes as a possible major as a guage. How they think, how they pursued the possible goals. The kids who have their ducks lined up can be in a better position than those who seem to be pulling ideas out of the air. Obviously, a kid who has a true interest in, say, “public policy,” won’t have studied it in hs. But they could expect this kid to show engagement in local affairs or advocacy, maybe MUN or debate, etc, and the history and govt classes. And be able to explain the interest, if a supp question asks.
As for competition for a major, yes, with a caveat or two. There is still a lot of competition for stem (and a lot of space.) It’s possible a kid is the umpteenth (and maybe also the umpteenth from particular geo area.) But at the other end, the Scand Lang wannabe doesn’t necessarily have a better shot, because that dept may be tiny, with few profs/classes, or other issues. Maybe the college would be happy with only one new kid. Or maybe they realize most kids who take Scand lang courses are actually majors from other fields (IR or Nordic history or literature, whatever.)
There are kids who try to game it. Maybe they feel they don’t have the stats/rigor to get in with a stem intention, but really want to be a doctor and think, once there, they can change. They know, eg, that classics and English generally need more males. But it’s hard to seem like a sensible classics kid, eg, if you never took Latin, took the minimum number of humanities classes and are top heavy with stem clases and ECs. It’s a funny double-edged sword.
Make any sense?
None of this seems sensible. But I get your point. AO’s have seen all the tricks and they can probably figure out a head-fake interests better than the average person given that they process thousands of applications every year.
Thus, the importance of being genuine and real in your application AND finding fit/the right match colleges. Having ECs, essays, courses, summer activities, camps, SAT subject tests, LORs, etc. which lineup behind the applicant’s interests makes as strong an applicant as possible with that person’s achieved grades and SAT/ACT scores.
@NewEngParent When I used the example of clssics with lots of stem, I didn’t realize your son is interested in both. There are college that would love that. My example was only kids who try to game, which some do.
An applicant doesn’t need it all, btw, the summer activities, camps, cancer research, national awards. Rather, the right range, stretch, and depth as well as breadth. And a well done app and the supps. How the kid attends to the kinds of info she submits and the way any questions are answered, is also key.
You have to consider the kid on the couch.