Strength of Econ Dept?

Colleges & Universities Dartmouth College
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<p>White rabbit, yes, there are courses in Game Theory.</p>

<p>Snowman, I’m not sure where you heard those kind of numbers, but that is simply not true. Most classes are capped at 30. That said, most classes are smaller than that. (Granted, some are slightly larger, although none nearly as big as 60) Once you get to the upper level classes, they get smaller yet again…with 10-15 students. Size is never an issue. To answer your questions about the downsides of the department, I would say that it is sometimes hard to get into the classes that you want to take when you want to take them. You are always guaranteed at least your second choice, and firthermore if you don’t get into a class one term, you are guaranteed to get into it the following term, so it is never really much of an issue.</p>

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<p>^^OTOH, my S, who is not an econ major but has an interest in the field, has sucessfully registered for three econ classes when he wanted them.</p>

<p>BG: don’t confuse grad school rankings with an undergrad. IMO, there are Chicago and MIT and everybody else.</p>

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<p>That just goes more to my point. What I described doesn’t always happen…it’s more of the “worst case scenario”</p>

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<p>Dartmouth has a very good economics program. I wouldn’t say it is the absolute best, but it’s easily one of the top ones and if you’re serious, you would visit for a few days, sit in on classes and talk with as many students and professors as possible.</p>

<p>In terms of business in an overall sense, Dartmouth, as one of the most selective undergraduate colleges in the country, is outstandingly good by just about any measure. Fortune Magazine’s “Where the CEOs went to college” article, by Susan Caminiti, ranked national colleges and universities by the number of CEOs they produced, and Dartmouth came in in the top five – see <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2144649-post4.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2144649-post4.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>my S 08 just got hired by Bain and company in chicago
voted by consulting magazine as </p>

<h1>1 consulting company to work for</h1>

<p>S 08 is an economics major
we have no one in the family in any business field
so economics dept must be doing something right!!</p>

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<p>BalletGirl - As someone else said, you are really off base comparing Dartmouth’s economics program with a list of graduate programs. Dartmouth has an excellent economics program. There aren’t too many other schools where an introductory economics class is capped at 45 students and always taught by a professor. Most intro classes at other good universities, including Harvard, are 150 and up and you get to talk to a TA once a week. Undergrads don’t get the same attention or the same research opportunities they get at Dartmouth. Being popular doesn’t make it a good department. It is popular BECAUSE it is a good department. And because Dartmouth econ majors are highly recruited by many companies, and it is not because they made fraternity connections, it is because of the education they receive as econ majors at Dartmouth.
In response to the OP’s questions, the department is popular (again, because it is good) and so they are always looking for more professors. That doesn’t mean you won’t get the classes you want. Remember Dartmouth is trimester so you have that many more opportunities to take each class. There will be 5sections of Econ 1 in the fall, 4 in the winter and 4 in the spring. If you don’t get it your first term, chances are you will get it your second term. You should not be concerned. You can go into the Registrar’s website and look at the prospectus of courses to see how many different sections there are of each class (and the extremely low enrollment limits for each) each term.</p>

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<p>The D plan actually serves Dartmouth students incredibly well for corporate recruiting as well. There is little to no real competition for Dartmouth students to get school-year internships at banks and consulting firms, so it gets lots of Dartmouth students opportunities students at other top 10 schools do not get.</p>

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<p>hey all, here’s a view from the inside…</p>

<p>Dartmouth economics program is okay; not great by any stretch of the imagination though. The strongest part of econ is finance, which is great for many students because everyone wants to go into i banking/consulting. As far as graduate school placement, however, Dartmouth is not good at all; it does not offer any theoretical economics class, philosophy of economics, and does not even touch upon the Austrian School; its almost purely Keynesian. No graduate school in economics means that students can’t take the common graduate while still undergrad, something that PHD programs are looking for more and more. </p>

<p>With that said, a few kids go to PHD programs each year but top 5 placement is not great at all. Dartmouth Econ is great for people going into banking, but if you’re looking for a view of econ beyond finance maybe you should go to Chicago after all. But you better be sure; Dartmouth rocks :)</p>

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<p>To follow up slickhitter’s excellent points and to mitigate DartMom’s well-intended, heartfelt, but misguided rave, I would like to present data supporting slickhitter’s insights.</p>

<p>Below are the baccalaureate origins (undergraduates sources) in the US of PhDs in Economics from 1996-2003, normalized for institution size. The number represents PhDs per 1,000 graduates.</p>

<p>Swarthmore College 15.12
Agnes Scott College 9.08
Grinnell College 9.04
Carleton College 7.04
Williams College 6.96
Harvard University 6.88
Macalester College 6.49
Princeton University 4.78
Trinity University (TX) 4.55
MIT 4.46
Stanford University 4.40
Yale University 4.28
Wabash College 3.92
Bowdoin College 3.91
University of Chicago 3.77
Oberlin College 3.77
Wellesley College 3.66
Earlham College 3.53
Kalamazoo College 3.48
Beloit College 3.27
Pomona College 3.21
Illinois Wesleyan University 3.16
College of William and Mary 3.09
Amherst College 3.09
Columbia University 3.02
Rice University 2.93</p>

<p>This data is taken directly from a recent working paper, The Undergraduate Origins of Ph.D. Economists by John Siegfried of Vanderbilt. </p>

<p>[EconPapers:</a> The Undergraduate Origins of Ph.D. Economists](<a href=“http://econpapers.repec.org/paper/vanwpaper/0611.htm]EconPapers:”>EconPapers: The Undergraduate Origins of Ph.D. Economists)</p>

<p>As you can see, to slickhitter’s point, “as far as graduate school placement, Dartmouth is not good at all; it does not offer any theoretical economics class, philosophy of economics, and does not even touch upon the Austrian School; it’s almost purely Keynesian.” In fact, from this perspective the academic aspects of Dartmouth economics department do not appear to be even on par with many smaller liberal arts colleges (LACs). </p>

<p>I would never argue for a moment that a Dartmouth degree is not a great, great passport to entry-level investment banking and management consulting positions. It most certainly is. It is also probably a pretty strong credential for eventual entry into a top MBA program. One can simply invoke Jeff Immelt and Henry Paulson (Harvard MBAs both) to make this point.</p>

<p>What I think it is safe to say, based on data not anecdote, is that the academic quality of Dartmouth’s economic department is, well, ok. I have presented data on the rankings of graduate programs in economics (as a rough proxy of departmental quality) and now data on the top undergraduate sources of PhDs in economics as another proxy. </p>

<p>And DartMom, like I mentioned to slipper, please do not ever underestimate the role tradition plays, including in recruiting patterns, and the importance of the “social” aspect of the Dartmouth experience in the production of high-status, high-income business elites. Dartmouth’s history as a “work hard, party hard”, traditionally male-oriented school is important in undertanding its success in the production of these elites. And please, please don’t dis’ Keggy-the-Kegger and the friends from the frat. They play an important role as social lubricants. ;)</p>

<p>Party on!</p>

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<p>I think BalletGirl makes a valid point. However, I do not agree with her analysis of the statistics. True, Dartmouth does not appear on that list as a school that sends a lot of students to PhD programs. But this doesn’t say Dartmouth has poor graduate placement. What this really says is something about the character of the school: it appears that many of the students take their classes–maybe a few go to get an MBA and then most of them go off to practice in the actual field of business; but PhD’s are not the priority of many of these students. As many know, Dartmouth has a reputation for turning out tons of businessmen and few businessmen–the Fiske Guide even says that. So, in the most basic sense, I think all those stats say is that PhD programs are not a priority of Dartmouth students–and this reflects more on the character of the students (ready to pursue the practical hands on business, not so interested in dabbling in the theoretical or getting a PhD so that they can teach) than the Economics major itself.</p>

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<p>Balletgirl, it seems like the major point that you are overlooking is not all Econ majors are looking to go in to PhD programs. Even if you were to look at the average number of undergraduate number per year based on the data you presented (remember there are lies, damn lies and statistics) you will see that the actual average # of students going into PhD programs are indeed very small.</p>

<p>based on the same information you presented, you will see that year over year the average # of **actual students ** going into PhD programs.</p>

<p>[ul]
undergrad #PhD 1997-2003 [right] Avg# students/yr 97-03[/right]</p>

<p>[li]Swarthmore College 39 [right] 5.6[/right][/li][li]Agnes Scott College 7 [right] 1.0[/right][/li][li]Grinnell College 20 [right] 2.9[/right][/li][li]Carleton College 22 [right]3.1[/right][/li][li]Williams College 25 [right]3.6[/right][/li][li]Harvard University 86 [right]12.3[/right][/li][li]Macalester College 17 [right] 2.4[/right][/li][li]Princeton University 37 [right] 5.3[/right][/li][li]Trinity University 16 [right]2.3[/right][/li][li]MIT 35 [right]5.0[/right][/li][li]Stanford University 51 [right]7.3[/right][/li][li]Yale University 39 [right]5.6[/right][/li][li]Wabash College 5 [right]0.7[/right][/li][li]Bowdoin College 10 [right]1.4[/right][/li][li]University of Chicago 21 [right] 3.0. [/right][/li][li]Oberlin College 19 [right] 2.7[/right][/li][li]Wellesley College 15 [right]2.1[/right][/li][li]Earlham College 6 [right]0.9[/right][/li][li]Kalamazoo College 6 [right] 0.9[/right][/li][li]Beloit College 5 [right] 0.7[/right][/li][li]Pomona College 8 [right]1.1[/right][/li][li]Illinois Wesleyan University 8 [right]1.1[/right][/li][li]College of William and Mary 27 [right]3.9[/right][/li][li]Amherst College 9 [right]1.3[/right][/li][li]Columbia University 27 [right] 3.9[/right][/li][li]Rice University 13 [right] 1.9[/right][/li][/ul]</p>

<p>It is safe to say that even at Swarthmore they are graduating more than 5 Econ majors per year. So what are the rest of those people doing?</p>

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<p>Bigman,</p>

<p>You make a fair point about the kinds of students at Dartmouth. In your mind, they prefer practice over theory, the real world over the ivory tower, making money over talking about it, etc. and thus they eschew graduate study in economics. I got that. However, it doesn’t necessarily follow, logically, that Dartmouth has a top ranked economics program. It may, but you can’t derive it from your statement. </p>

<p>Do you really think Dartmouth economic majors are really that different from those at Williams, Amherst, Pomona, Princeton and Bowdoin? Do Dartmouth students have so much better access to, and do they receive so much more compelling offers from I-banks and consulting firms, as to make the option for graduate study in economics completely unattractive? </p>

<p>Sybbie, I do not, at all, overlook the fact that many economic students don’t wish to pursue a Ph.D. I state quite clearly that the option to go into I-banking and consulting is an attractive one for D students, as it for many at other schools I have cited. What is striking is Dartmouth’s absence from the list I posted. And yes, some of the numbers are small, but one would think Dartmouth would at least be represented on it, especially against like-sized peers.</p>

<p>The OP began this tread with a question of concern. In alluding to the article about the difficulty Dartmouth has in recruiting high-quality scholars in economics and PS to the school and the challenges D faces by the expanding interest in economics and political science at the school, the OP asked the group about where Dartmouth’s economic program ranked, believing it was top ranked nationally behind Yale and Chicago. While we can clearly say that Dartmouth, itself, is a top ranked school and that many of its graduates who study economics get great jobs in industry, are we really any closer to answering the OP’s question?</p>

<p>OP are you out there??</p>

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<p>BalletGirl:</p>

<p>perhaps I missed it, but where on Swat list (#1 PHD producer) of courses does it show that they offer: "theoretical economics class, philosophy of economics, and…the Austrian School?</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/academics/economics/econ_handbook.pdf[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/Documents/academics/economics/econ_handbook.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>bluebayou,</p>

<p>It’s all packed into that one course entitled, “Greed”. :)</p>

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<p>Balletgirl,</p>

<p>I would actually assert that, yes, Dartmouth students on average get much more compelling real world offers (banks, consulting) than their LAC counterparts. Also the econ culture encourages real world success in business after school, whereas at places like Swarthmore real world application of learning is almost frowned upon. At places like Swat culturally the push is to go into academia.</p>

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<p>Slipper,</p>

<p>Not to put too fine a point on it, but would say that is the case in relation to Williams, Amherst and Princeton as well? </p>

<p>I agree with you that this has a lot to do with “culture” and I would also simply add history and tradition. These transcend the issue of rankings and makes almost irrelevant whether D has a top-ranked academic economics department.</p>

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<p>I’d say that Dartmouth might have a more professional focus than Williams and Amherst, certainly more than Swarthmore. I doubt it’s true for Princeton, though.</p>

<p>That said, Amherst and Williams do extremely well, and there is excellent advising for students who want to pursue econ (Amherst is very proud of our two Nobel Prize in Economics winning alumni, too! ;))</p>

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<p>Thanks unregistered,</p>

<p>It’s great to get a point of view from outside of D.</p>

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<p>i would not get caught up in rankings at all. With all said and done, Dartmouth has a great economics department if you want to go into finance / public policy; a not very good department if you want to get a PHD. </p>

<p>Most students in econ are interested in finance (at least at Dartmouth) thus it is great for that. As for public policy, we have top professors who’ve worked at the Fed; Andrew Samwick was head of the council of econimic advisors i believe (not sure). </p>

<p>Overall ranking does not matter. All that matters is overall fit. For 95% of econ students, Dartmouth is more than great. For the student looking for a PhD, it may not be the best option.</p>

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<p>You go to Dart for a complete undergrad experience… not just econ… the brandname alone will bring you anywhere anyway</p>