Student Turns Down ALL the Ivies and other Elites for.....The University of Alabama! Bama Wins!

Parents Forum
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Data10, I don’t think that there is anything in the Hoxby or Avery research in the past 20 years that might contradict with my posts on analyzing the yield and reaching the same conclusion. You are correct that this group of strivers is eminently small at the top school, but the size of this group is not important enough to move the needle. The low representation of low income students among the top schools is an element that has been amply discussed in the Rose and Carnevale students.

Fwiw, my point was about people who DO have the choice meaning they were accepted and not about the shoulda, coulda, did not apply, or the army of people who were purportedly accepted according to the cocktail hour gossips.

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@Marihorror:

(1) I’ve spent a lot of my life living around where I grew up, and then a lot of time in other parts of the US and abroad. Living somewhere else for a few years, by itself, will add enrichment to life.

(2) It takes two people to have a misunderstanding. If you don’t understand my post, then the fault isn’t automatically mine.

(3) He’s African-American, and from the South. That demographic group will benefit (in terms of career payoffs) from an Ivy education more than someone from a more traditional Ivy background (upper-income person from the Northeast).

(4) I never said that institutionalized racism will be solved by “a few black kids attending Harvard”. Re-read my post and think a bit more before saying things like that.

(5) I did read the article- and others.

@romanigypsyeyes, we know that you prefer aiming low in one’s education. You’ve made your point.

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@HappyAlumnus
It’s awesome that living abroad was such an enriching experience for you, however lets not pretend to be all knowing about what will and will not improve the depth of a specific persons life. I agree that being exposed to different people and places is a learning experience, however you don’t need to move far away to do that. In fact, going to a large State U with thousands of students from around the globe is likely going to expose him to a hell of a lot more culture than a small LAC with a couple thousand, majority of whom are white and upperclass.

Also, an ivy league education would not benefit a black man more than a white man. If he’s going for a job against other minorities perhaps, but if a white man with a degree from Harvard and a black man with a degree from Harvard apply for the exact same job, who do you think will get the job? My money’s certainly not on the black man.

Secondly, never said that an ivy league diploma wouldn’t benefit anyone. However, I fail to see how in this specific case it would do him any better than UA. At the end of the day, as long as he performs well and meets his prereqs, he will still be accepted to a medical school. And if he does anywhere near as well in college as in high school, he will be accepted to a top notch medical school. Go check the student profiles for med schools like Harvard and Yale. Majority of them do not go to ivy league schools for undergrad big shocker, I know. For this particular student, it really matters where he attends medical school than anything else which is why it’s the intelligent choice for him to save up so that he can afford a “top tier” one. When he’s applying for residencies, no hospital is going to give a rat’s behind where he went to undergrad. Seriously, they won’t. Like at all. They only thing that will matter is his med school stats and connections.

So again, I ask, why is it a better choice for him to forego a full scholarship at University of Alabama?

“If we’re ever going to have equality in the US, we need a lot more members of historically-underrepresented minority groups at the highest levels of power and influence.”

If we’re ever going to have equality in the US, how about we focus on the police that are killing them in the streets before we worry about which Ivy league they’ll attend :-<

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Personally I think the elite schools shortchange minorities by not letting them pursue the dreams that got them to college. I see them graduating with degrees about their race rather than what they wanted to pursue in terms of medicine, engineering or whatever else they wanted to study when they started there.

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The tangent that triggered this discussion related to comparing the student body among the Alabama honors college and HYPS. Yield is not meaningful for such a comparison since students who favor Alabama over HYPS are not expected to apply to both schools and be cross admits, as discussed in my earlier post. That said, I agree that most honors college students would not have been admitted to HYPS had they applied. There are many exceptional students in the Alabama honors college, including more non-sponsored national merit scholars than half of the Ivy League colleges, but as a whole the honors college is less selective than HYPS and has a notably different admittance criteria.

Regarding the student in the news story, while the honors college won’t be the same experience as HYPS, that is not necessarily a bad thing. In my opinion, the Fellows program sounds like it provides some good opportunities (more detail at http://honors.ua.edu/university-fellows-experience/ ), there will be some excellent students who are like minded to the poster in the news story, and the college will likely help him achieve his goals. There is a not a universal right and wrong answer about college selection. Alabama (or similar) is the better choice for some students, while HYPS is the better choice for others.

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@texaspg: ??? Calling them merit scholarships doesn’t mean that they go solely off of stats. I’m sure you can find other qualities and achievements that are merit-worthy, I hope.

And one anecdote doesn’t evidence make.

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@Marihorror:
“Also, an ivy league education would not benefit a black man more than a white man. If he’s going for a job against other minorities perhaps, but if a white man with a degree from Harvard and a black man with a degree from Harvard apply for the exact same job, who do you think will get the job? My money’s certainly not on the black man.”

You seem unaware that many (big) companies have affirmative action policies now. At those companies, if all else is equal, the black man definitely has the advantage.

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I will accept anecdotes of people getting merit scholarships with 2000 scores at Duke or Wash U.

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@PurpleTitan I wouldn’t go as far as saying “many”, especially in regards to large, high paying companies. Many people on CC would love to believe that black people have this mystical advantage in college admissions and applying to the jobs, however studies and statistics simply do not support this statement.

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@Marihorror, which studies and statistics?

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@texaspg “Personally I think the elite schools shortchange minorities by not letting them pursue the dreams that got them to college. I see them graduating with degrees about their race rather than what they wanted to pursue in terms of medicine, engineering or whatever else they wanted to study when they started there.”

Students are free to major in whatever interests them. The college does not assign the student a major. They certainly do not tell African American students that they have to major in African American studies.

How can you say that elite Universities do not let them pursue their dreams? Where do you get your information? What you are saying gives me the impression that you don’t know have any direct experience or knowledge about elite Universities at all.

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http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/08/black-men-need-more-education-to-get-the-same-jobs/375770/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/02/the-economys-troubling-double-standard-for-black-men/

http://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/

@PurpleTitan here’s a few.

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Post #105, somehow through LinkedIn I was able to look at some kids from Harvard and some of them are very good looking. In fact, when I was at a club sport, a bunch of Yale students came there for Spring break and they were better looking than some kids that I know from USC.

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The University of Alabama appears to give no need-based financial aid other than passing through whatever federal aid the student is eligible for (based on its net price calculator). While its in-state cost of attendance of $25,000 is not super-high, it may be difficult for many families in Alabama (which is a lower than average income state) to afford if the student does not get any of the merit scholarships.

Of course, the low income Alabama residents likely have much less voice in politics than high income Alabama residents. While only the top (scholarship earning) low income students can benefit from UA’s current policies, all high income students can benefit from the increasing national profile (whether they are scholarship earners or full pay students who made it in with 2.8 HS GPA and 23 ACT or some such).

It still is not difficult to get admitted to UA. And it is affordable for high income Alabama residents, whose voices are the ones that count in politics. (The low income Alabama residents cannot afford UA for their kids unless the kids are top students, but their voices probably are not being listened to.)

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I am intrigued by some of the responses to Nelson’s story. One of my own kids has a somewhat similar story. At times, I still silently mull his college choices over – why he made them, what he’s gained by them, what he may have lost by them, what sort of impact his choices will have on his future. In any case, they were his choices, and I’m proud of him for always seeming to know what he wants, and for going for what he wants, without regard for “image” or “prestige” or any sort of “crowd mentality.”

My son’s stats were tippy top in all categories. Higher than Nelson’s, but that’s only mentioned to make a point in this post. He, too, was an NMF (not URM), had significant leadership experience, and earned state recognition a few years in a row for his main extracurricular.

For various reasons, he didn’t apply to any of the ivy’s, but he did apply Early Action to MIT, which was his dream school at the time. He also applied to a variety of fairly elite schools like Rice, USC, Vanderbilt, Wash U, etc. And he applied to two large publics.

He was accepted EA to MIT with huge grants. To this day, whenever I read about what MIT is looking for in a student, the description fits my son to a T. It seemed like a great fit when he applied.

He was also accepted to all of the other schools with huge grants and/or scholarships to each.

His best scholarship packages, though, were from the two state schools. (No surprise.) The one state school (OOS) would have cost him about $8000 total over 4 years (about $2K per year). The other state school would be totally free AND would pay him tens of thousands of dollars over 4 years.

After a 5-day visit to MIT, he decided that, just maybe, MIT was not for him. It just didn’t seem to fit as well as several other schools on his list, he said. I will admit, I was, at times, disappointed. Would he really turn down MIT, which most of us think of as a golden ticket for life?

(Until he visited MIT, which only happened after he was accepted, he couldn’t possibly know as much about the feel and fit of the school.)

After all of his college visits (2 and 3 visits to his top choices), he had a clear favorite, over all others, in terms of fit and feel. It was a very expensive school, and after all scholarships that school would have cost him … can’t remember exactly … something like $8000 a year, I think, total, without consideration for annually rising costs. It looked to me like that would be his school.

Well, ultimately, it was a certain donor from one of the state schools who won him over (the guy’s character, demeanor, and credentials, that is). That donor – and then my son’s undergrad department – convinced my son that he was the perfect fit for that school, and that they were the perfect fit for him. To this day, I really can’t disagree.

So, my son declined MIT; he also declined what had come to be his clear favorite; and he declined all of the others to attend this large public. Whenever asked, he came to cite three main reasons for his choice: (1) the donor’s impressive character, (2) the fit and feel of the school and department, (3) his other top choices would have resulted in student loans and/or a greater financial hardship for his parent. (This was not something I brought up or encouraged. Ever.)

He accumulated tens of thousands of dollars in the bank (from scholarships in excess of COA). He had a great time. He was definitely challenged by the program (but kept his 4.0). He met great people, including several other students like him who likewise turned down MIT and other well-known elite schools. He studied abroad, did research, completed a challenging minor in a totally separate field, participated in honors, continued leading within his main extracurricular, learned another language, developed close relationships with a few of the faculty, graduated with several distinctions and high honors, earned an elite university fellowship for graduate school (full-funding and a very large stipend), and also earned an elite national fellowship for graduate school (full-funding with an even larger stipend to the school of his choice). The fellowships can be used back to back to pay for a whole heck of a lot of education. Plus big money in the bank.

He chose to attend graduate school at a large state public. After declining his MIT undergrad offer, he always said he’d apply for MIT again – for graduate school. But he didn’t. He chose his grad school for his faculty advisor and his research project. Smart reasons to choose a school, right? He did not cast a wide net. He knew what he wanted, and he got it.

He’s doing what he enjoys. He’s surrounded by people he likes and admires.

But, this thread does revive some parental feelings of uncertainty that only occasionally bubble to the surface. IF he could be happy there, I would have loved for him to attend MIT! Wouldn’t we all love for our children to attend the most respected school in their field, if they could be happy there? And of course, we will never know if it would have fit him just fine, or not. To be really honest with myself, I (silently) would also have liked to have seen him apply to a smattering of other widely respected graduate schools – just to see what might be out there for him. But what’s interesting (and far more important than what his parent might like “for fun”) is that he doesn’t care about all of that! He is very happy with his choices. He is certain that he made the right choices for both undergrad and grad. He never looks back.

It’s so interesting to hear others discuss this Nelson-kid’s choice. Some seem to think he chose wisely. Some seem to think he chose poorly. Some seem to think his parents made him choose – where to apply and/or where to attend. Lots of assumptions. I’m especially intrigued by those who seem to look down on his choice.

So far, my own son’s choices haven’t seemed to be bad ones. I really doubt that he’ll have trouble finding work when he finishes graduate school. I know that he’s already made some really good contacts and built some really strong relationships. I know he’s extremely interested in his area of research. I know he loves his school and greatly admires his advisor and his peers. It looks to me like he’ll be very happy and successful in life – as in “successful on his terms,” by what HE defines as success.

I’m thinking, based on my own family’s experience, that Nelson made a pretty smart (and difficult) choice. All my best to him!

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This isn’t rocket science, people. UAlabama was his only realistically affordable option by design, chance, misfortune, stupidity, or otherwise. Smart or stupid, wise or silly, it was really his only sensible choice. Could he have planned his college applications “better?” Perhaps. But could he have done worse? Definitely.

I mean, what if his only option would have been a gasp community college? Or someplace dreadful like a non-flagship university in the midwest? There would have been no hope for him EVER having a successful life. At least at Bama, he has SOME chance, albeit faint since he didn’t go to Harvard.

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What do you consider “low-level jobs”?

In any case, a few members of historically-underrepresented minority groups in jobs with the highest levels of power an influence (e.g. President of the United States) won’t magically create racial equality everywhere in US society.

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@SimpleLife, it’s arguable just how much advantage MIT would have provided over Rice/Vandy/WashU in STEM research; they’re all rich. And some state schools are absolute powerhouses doing the most cutting-edge research in some STEM fields.

However, I believe that 'Bama spends more money on their football team than on all research combined (that certainly was true a few years ago), which . . . . is not true at other flagships (for instance, UMich and UW-Madison both bring in and spend gigantic amounts of money on research, ranking #2 and #3 respectively on research funding among all universities in the US).

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Sensible. That’s the question. What is sensible for me (granted, EFC near 40K plus or minus 5K) may not be sensible for you. My son’s dream school will end up giving him 36K of loans by the time he graduates, if we don’t manage to help guide him to graduate early. We’ll be paying around 160K.

But we were lucky that we got into the housing market at the right time, and have home equity for it. Our take is that we can afford going back to our 3K mortgage so that our son goes to a college he loves and feels at home at.

I do not envy so many kids who seem to have a “qualitative” choice about where to go to school, because their parents on paper can afford one thing and in reality will not pay that. We are not going to ruin our family by paying 160K over the next four years, but it’s not like we have 10x that just lying around either. If our family circumstances change, he knows that he may need to transfer to a much cheaper school.

Yet the idea of paying 40K in one year for anything at all is something that is difficult to wrap our minds around. Luckily, we do have a monthly payment plan available, and also the school accepts credit cards through that plan so we get a few hundred dollars back on rewards.

UA gets a LOT of play on CC, I assume because they are generous with aid to the very top students. They either offer a full ride or very close. I can see why they would consider that a good ROI, and not only do they have GPA and test score-based scholarships, they have department-based “special ability” scholarships.

http://scholarships.ua.edu/faq/

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His stats are good but not amazing. I honestly think he got into all Ivies and Stanford/WashU because of his URM status. Bama isn’t getting some academic superstar here. Many students like him routinely choose “lesser” schools for financial reason. This “news” isn’t really newsworthy IMO.