Based on what I know of its program, I’d support the choice of Dartmouth for visual art.
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For what it’s worth, D24 is in the driver’s seat in terms of choosing which school or what kind of school she wants. With that in mind, I don’t have a perfect understanding of what exactly what she wants or what’s motivating her. But I’ve given her my spiel about picking the best college for her and generally ignoring considerations of prestige and rankings.
The biggest levers here are cost, art program, and fit. As mentioned above, D24 has consistently wanted to major in studio art. But she has other academic interests. She enjoyed physics and she has spent more energy this year on a civic-oriented competition than art. So, I think she still wants the opportunity to explore other subjects. One can’t do that much with BFA, where the “foundation” first year allows only one elective per semester. I’ve advised her that if she wants the most art-focused option, WashU and its BFA is probably her best choice.
Why Wesleyan for art? It’s obviously the most artistically oriented school of this bunch and graduated 22 studio art degrees last year per NCES. Beyond a general reputation for performing art and cinematic art strength, I haven’t heard much about it’s visual/studio art program. It does have excellent study abroad programs at foreign art schools as well as the ability to spend a semester at the School of Visual Arts in NYC. We never got to visit Wes.
Why Bowdoin for art? Bowdoin has the smallest number of art degrees last year (5, per NCES). But I also wonder if having many art professors for each studio-art major might itself be an advantage. Bowdoin has nice art facilities, a great museum, and the best Fulbright placement, which is something that interests D24. It also offers a unique summer artist-in-residence program on its private island in Canada. It also has excellent study abroad programs at foreign art colleges.
Why Dartmouth for art? Dartmouth’s art facilities were exceptional when we toured it last year. It also offers a unique internship program in which graduates can spend an extra year at Dartmouth working on their art and Dartmouth’s dime in exchange for helping the department in small ways. Dartmouth granted 16 fine art degrees last year. One downside to Dartmouth is that it doesn’t currently have a study-abroad option for studio art.
Why Swarthmore for art? I’ve heard from a few folks that Swat’s art program is small but mighty, which is at least corroborated by the Fiske Guide. It also has Randall Exon, who has an excellent reputation as an artist (painting) as a teacher. Swat granted 8 studio art degrees last year, has excellent study abroad options at foreign art schools, and is the only consortium school of the bunch–D24 could take courses at Bryn Mawr, Haverford, or Penn. We never visited Swat, but, as mentioned above, D24 will attend an admitted students weekend in a few weeks.
Why Pomona for art (in the unlikely event a waitlist spot opens up)? It has most of Swat’s benefits, plus it has produced a couple artists I’ve actually heard of, like James Turrell. The new studio arts facilities are reputed to be extremely nice.
While some may think her list has contrasting schools, I think D24 is fairly flexible and could probably thrive socially and academically at any of these schools. At least, I trust her to confirm that. She’s creative, social, collaborative, intellectual, and when her plate is full, she’s the type that asks for another plate. I also think the study-abroad options can be important because they give her a chance to take art courses at “hard-core” art schools.
Again, I’m just an advisor, and my influence over D24’s decision-making is waning everyday. Fortunately, D24 is much smarter and probably even a little wiser than I am. I have faith in her.
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If you like Mac, compete the offer from WashU, Wes. I bet they’ll match.
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Just fyi: Wesleyan has probably the most impressive mid-career studio art alumni of any US school, small or large. Impressive as in major solo shows at top museums, leading artists of their generation, etc. A few names to google: Glenn Ligon, Rachel Harrison, Vincent Fecteau. Throw in leading critics like Maggie Nelson (MacArthur, National Book Award), playwrights like Lin Manuel Miranda, and the legion of actors, directors, and musicians who attended Wes and it’s simply a spectacular roster of talent. Many of these people graduated decades ago, but top-flight arts production is clearly in the water (and air) in Middletown, helped no doubt by the extensive programming and facilities of the Center for the Arts.
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Interesting set of takes. If I’m being honest, some seem stronger than others - that is, some evals seem to be looking for the art-studio angle, whereas with others the art-studio play is more obvious. When you first came on, it seemed like this was a big driver; but it sounds like there is more going on than just studio/visual art, which is perfectly fine. I understand you mentioned physics as just an example, but if she concludes that it is the example, Wes is also very strong in physics as well. Lots to read about there if it becomes relevant. They also have interesting new studio arts facilities being built right now.
That all said, it is an enviable list of options and I’m sure she can’t really make a mistake, per se. But, while I’m no artist myself, I also suspect that some choices are going to prove better than others for studio/visual art as a focus.
Also, fwiw, you never have to explain to me who is driving the decision. I always assume it’s the kid unless it’s obvious that it’s not. I hope I didn’t suggest otherwise.
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One consideration is what are the academic requirements like overall and what percentage of her classes can be art classes if she so desired. For my daughter, it helped to get granular and look at what she would be learning on a semester by semester basis and whether that aligned with what she wanted to get out of her education.
We ended up taking most liberal arts colleges off of D22’s list because she would only have been able to take 1 or 2 art classes per semester. Many of the open curriculum schools require that more than half your credits are outside your major. Swarthmore requires that 20 out of 32 credits be outside your major (I’m an alum so we looked). Most BA art degrees are maybe 7-8 studio art classes and 3-4 art history classes. So if you are limited to a maximum amount of in-major classes, that leaves very few actual studio art classes. When my daughter realized that she would not get to really go in depth into art at many of these schools, she pivoted.
Also, is there a medium that your daughter has a special interest in? If so, what are the opportunities for upper-level classes and advanced work? What are the facilities like? My daughter especially liked painting and ceramics, so we crossed off schools that didn’t offer ceramics.
My daughter ended up in a BFA program at UMass Amherst with a concentration in ceramics and she is going to pursue a dual BA in art history. It has worked out well.
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I just wanted to confirm that my understanding of D24’s motivations is imperfect. Although I probably give a contrary impression at times, I’m certainly not speaking directly on her behalf. Still, it’s important to recognize her agency. She has spoken to art teachers, artists, etc. She also did a month-long art program at BU led by art professors and MFA students. I tend to trust her ability to make this decision from an art perspective. Nor is she the type to give in to peer pressure or notions of prestige, which I sense may be an unspoken concern.
One thing I’ve struggled with is what actually makes one school’s art department better than another school’s. As a random example, can anyone articulate exactly what Wesleyan does better for its studio art majors than Bowdoin? Are the professors better? More talented students? Better career counseling? Better facilities? Better funding for art opportunities? Vague sense of institutional reputation? I know that sometimes more is better, but, particularly when we’re talking about LACs, that’s not always the case, right?
Then there are third party sources, which offer a plethora of unverified and often contradictory results.
- The Fiske Guide emphasizes that Swarthmore has a strong visual arts program, but does not mention visual art in its description of Wesleyan, Dartmouth, or Bowdoin.
- The Niche list for art ranks Dartmouth #13, WashU #15, Bowdoin #21, Swat #26, and Wes #44.
- A College Vine post mentions Wes, Bowdoin, and Swat as having strong studio art programs among LACs.
- College Transitions’ list of colleges and universities with strong art programs mentions WashU, but omits Wes, Swat, Dartmouth, or Bowdoin.
- And a Seattle PI list mentions Swat and Pomona but not any of the other LACs here.
(Per CC rules, I can’t include the links for these websites.)
Honestly, it’s kind of an epistemological mess. My own conclusion—at this point—is that D24 can probably get a good art education at any of these schools. But, FWIW, I made my pitch for Wesleyan before the ED2 deadline and more recently.
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Much appreciated. I discussed each college’s requirements with D24 on Saturday, and especially Swat’s, which are the most restrictive of the bunch. The 20-credit rule was a little surprising when I came across it last week.
D24 is most interested in painting but she wants to explore other mediums.
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These questions seem partly rhetorical. Nonetheless, I’d suggest considering the studio arts facilities in the context of the design of the campus. For example, are they near the center of campus, or on the periphery? Are they near supporting facilities and departments, notably the art museum and the art history department? Is there an overall physical sense of a visual arts community?
Consider a reasonable threshold (20 graduates per year?), above which more might not be better, but significantly below which might be less than ideal.
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Point well taken, and it’s something I’ve thought about and discussed with D24. I sometimes look at a school’s NCES and wonder how that single kid with the only degree in “dance” his year fared without a larger community? Maybe he was lonely? Maybe he received an exceptional amount of support and attention from his school’s dance faculty?
But I also struggle with the consideration of critical mass in the context of an LAC, where the vast of majors will only have a few students. Taking Bowdoin as an example, it offers 42 different majors. Of those 42 majors, however, only nine majors had more than 15 students obtain a degree last year. Whereas, the vast majority of Bowdoin’s other 33 majors will only have a handful of students each year. So, if you’re going to an LAC, it seems like most kids will have to accept a small number of subject-matter comrades as part of the experience. I’m guessing it mostly works out.
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And Jeffrey Deitch`74 is a major force in the gallery and collecting world.
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I have literally witnessed him on campus visits, giving his business card to individual students.
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That is always a good question, and as it relates to visual arts you’re asking the wrong guy. Of course, there are the examples where the center of gravity for something is super strong and obvious at a particular place, and everybody acknowledges it. So, Middlebury for foreign languages, Wesleyan for film, Williams for Art History. That kind of overwhelming obviousness. The body of work produced, the activity of alumni, and the contribution of the department is so clear, and the views of others in the field so uninform, that you have to conclude that there’s some amount of “there there.” Outside of those clear situations, who’s to say, right? That’s kind of why I asked. I know next to nothing about studio/visual art, but just thinking it through, I would guess (best I can do) that having an active arts “scene”, for lack of a better word, would be important/helpful/conducive. IDK. So maybe the number of people doing it at a particular place where that activity is valued and celebrated would matter. And, then, maybe, some measure of whether any of the graduates ever go on to do anything in the field seems at least relevant.
Nothing would be dispositive, I suppose, other than perhaps concluding that there is a dearth of artistic activity on campus. As for the several rankings services - not sure what to do with that. I take those things with a grain of salt, though a lot of people around here live by them.
I guess I learned something new: Swarthmore is strong in the visual arts. Would not have thought of them for that.
Here’s how I would think about it. If I were serious about my kid having access to a high quality education in this or that area, then I would turn the question around. Instead of asking, “why not?” ask “why?”. Why does it work? How can it be that a program with such little activity be better than programs with much more activity? It may in fact be, but I’d make somebody make the case for me if I couldn’t see it myself. For something in the artistic pursuits, you’re talking about things that are often hard to reduce to a single, rational thought. It’s art. It’s inspiration. It’s abstract. It’s feeling. Who knows where it comes from. To me, that seems like the kind of thing you want to do in a place where there’s a lot of activity going on in that general area of pursuit. Be with creative people like you doing their thing along side you doing your thing. It seems like it would be especially affected by “scene”, if that makes sense.
But if a kid wants to go to Bowdoin, then they should go to Bowdoin. But don’t go with an idea in your head of it being something it may in fact not be. [Not speaking to you directly, just generally].
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I’m glad to see that your daughter has such fine choices!
Some of the metrics to use for evaluating art programs are general; some more specific to the student’s preference and interest.
First and foremost, does the college invest in the department as reflected in the number of full time faculty and the state and breadth of the facilities?
It’s somewhat circular: The number of students who choose to major in art impacts the budget and the budget impacts the interest level
Check the availability of courses covering the applicant’s medium of interest. Generally colleges focus on the core fine arts (drawing, painting, sculpture) with 2-3 additions like photography, printmaking, architecture and, recently, digital arts like video, website and game design.
Is the focus on process or theory? This is somewhat more difficult to determine (and I think talking and writing about art is a mainstay of the liberal arts)Still, it’s important to have instructors, ideally working artists, who can teach the physical processes.
I would also try to get a feeling for what art majors do after graduation. (Some schools will facilitate teacher certification, which is a standard fallback.)
For my son, having a robust art history department and a museum that welcomes student involvement was a big plus.
Look forward to hearing more after her visits.
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I had to rewind this thread in order to figure out how we got here and the bottom line seems to be that your child got into all of her reaches. Great spot to be in. Since Wesleyan is the only school on the list she hasn’t visited and has been kind of a confounding factor in her deliberations from the beginning (inaccurate Mytuition estimate; possible Lin-Manuel Miranda fatigue) why not just eliminate it?
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I have a busy day at work today, so I don’t have time to fully respond to everyone.
@cquin85 I really appreciate your advice and taking the time to chime in. My questions about what makes a good art department were somewhat rhetorical, as I too don’t really have a strong grasp on the issue. But it’s led me to some interesting pedagogical questions.
@momrath Thank you, as ever. Your comments are always helpful.
@circuitrider I’m not ruling out Wes just yet. If that’s D24’s ultimate decision, no problem. But because it’s such a good fit on paper, I just want her to give it a fair shot by, say, attending some virtual events and speaking with an art student.
Incidentally, I spoke with FA officers at Swat and Wes yesterday. Both provided the most generous offers of the bunch. My take is that the cost of Swat might cost slightly lower than Wes when everything is factored in, but they are close to equivalent. I’m speaking with Bowdoin and Dartmouth later this week, which will be trickier since we’ll likely appeal their FA packages.
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I might suggest that you prioritize a visit to Wes. It’s not always everyone’s cup of tea, but when it’s a fit, it’s really a fit.
My kids were pretty lucky in that they, like your D, had a nice set of options, especially the recruited athletes. The one who graduated from Wesleyan is the one who really had options, even more so than the one who is currently at Brown. Specifically amongst schools of a kind, she could have chosen Williams, where she was aggressively recruited by the coach and where she had the HS course rigor, numbers and EC considerations to make her a low-risk ‘no brainer’ choice for admissions to let in ED. And at the time, Williams was the dominant player in her sport. Despite all that, her choice of Wesleyan was as sure and definitive as any choice any of my kids made, and this is the kid who tried our patience and would get horribly “stuck” when confronting too many options growing up (a nightmare to dress in the morning when she was little, for example). She got there on her first unofficial visit and instantly knew it was her place.
I think another poster in another thread commented that they encountered a campus of people there who really love their school, and I would say that’s consistent with our experience. So, IMO, biased though it may be, it’s well worth a visit, especially if she’s an artist with ambitions to study other things. Interdisciplinary learning is in Wes’ DNA.
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If you can visit Wes I totally agree it would be helpful. We know several kids who went there and loved it (albeit at least one who took a year to find his people). My kid, who on paper should have been a sure bet, hated it. We visited twice (though Covid visits so no actual tour) and she still didn’t like it. Wouldn’t even consider applying (this is a kid who did ED to Vassar for context). One of the things she most disliked were the art buildings which she found ugly and depressing (they are basically brutalist boxes). Now my kid was particularly fixated on aesthetics - trees make her inordinately happy as does dark wood and old buildings - she rejected Carleton out of hand because of too much blond wood in the pix on the website - so I’m not saying a normal child would have the same rxn. But she didn’t like the dorms at Wes, or the football field in the middle of campus or the road cutting the campus in half - all of which are also impossible to judge from the website. Wes is an amazing school and sounds like a great choice for your daughter. And maybe these are not things that would bother her at all and maybe she’ll love the campus as do many do.
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But I’d definitely try to visit if possible.
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Well, maybe this is the time to have the “Dartmouth vs. Wesleyan Talk”. Both share long, parallel histories as small New England colleges, once even sharing a sports conference with Amherst, Bowdoin, and Williams called, the Pentagonal Conference and a college exchange program that is still in existence:
Twelve College Exchange in Brief – Dean of Studies (vassar.edu)
But other than those historical artifacts, I can’t think of two colleges so close geographically yet so different in terms of vibe. I’m sure a lot of this is old news to you: Dartmouth is a Division 1 NCAA college that has just recently faced a petition to have their athletes recognized as “employees”. Wesleyan is a Division 3 NCAA member, several degrees of amateur status below Dartmouth.
About 50% of Dartmouth students are active in fraternity/sorority life. At last count, I think Wesleyan had exactly one fraternity that was nationally recognized and had its own house; another half-dozen or so are strictly local, co-ed, and basically serve as either show-runners or eating clubs. They account for <10% of the student body.
Dartmouth is the home of The Dartmouth Review, a conservative, student-run publication with a toxic history (it may have toned itself down lately as the Republican Party has largely reorganized itself as a blue collar political party.) All I know is that I have yet to meet an African American alumnus of Dartmouth who didn’t consider their time there totally transactional.
Dartmouth is nearly twice as big as Wesleyan yet has the same number of Visual Arts majors (about 22 a year?) No doubt part of that can be accounted for by Wesleyan’s nationally known film studies program.
To paraphrase Daniel Webster, both are small colleges; there are those who love each of them. But IMO, it’s kind of difficult to love both of them.
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