I was suggesting that they were professionals in their own countries, but couldn’t get those professional jobs here. For example, they could be doctors or lawyers in their own countries, but were unable to practice here. You often read stories from successful children of immigrants who say things like, “Dad was an accountant in XXX, but he had to be a janitor when he came here.”
There was a segment on the PBS Newshour tonight about this study:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/black-men-face-economic-disadvantages-even-if-they-start-out-in-wealthier-households-new-study-shows
It’s an interview with Raj Chetty of Stanford University, one of the co-authors of the study.
Wealth =/= Income, income is far more transient and it takes far more income to create wealth than wealth to create income. (top 5% wealth is $2.5M or more, top 5% income $215K, $2.5M generates $100K per year in available cash flow)
People that point to test scores should read a little John Ogbu. You might find his research interesting.
I emailed to one of the authors, Raj Chetty, and asked him about my pet peeve with the study, that it seems to show that black men’s outcomes are the same as white and black women’s outcomes, and why was that not remarked on. I was impressed that he got back to me so quickly-- like, ten minutes later I had a reply.
He replied that a lot of people had asked the same question, and they are planning a reply. He also said black men have lower high school completion rate, higher rates of incarceration and lower rates of employment, and these are issues he and his co-authors think are worthy of study (as do I).
So that was cool.
Educational issues go much much beyond just test scores that it would be futile to focus on them.
I would rather focus on better education, maybe more or better classes in English/math etc.
“asked him about my pet peeve with the study, that it seems to show that black men’s outcomes are the same as white and black women’s outcomes, and why was that not remarked on.”
We had the same reaction in my family when we were talking about this over dinner last night. Our take on it was:
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This appears to be less an issue of black men not doing as well as white men, it appears to be white men have their own success trajectory and everybody who is not white and/or not male moves along a different path.
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Apparently it’s no biggie - not newsworthy anyway - when women don’t have access to the same level of success as men. It’s only noteworthy when one race of men has different results, but it’s still acceptable that women lag behind.
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Until we get to the point where we can frankly discuss all the aspects that might possibly impact the difference in results - including but not limited to cultural differences, marriage rates, male role models, education levels - research will be limited and information lacking. Tough to address an issue when the current political and social climate prevents research and information gathering.
And that seems like the answer as to why black men are making less income than white men. Lower high school completion, higher incarceration and less employment. Yep, that would do it. Not a mystery here. Seems like that would be a worthwhile study to do…why are these things happening? And I can understand racism being an issue as far as men from higher income backgrounds still being incarcerated and employed at lower rates, but lower rates of high school graduation? That doesn’t make sense (unless you are being incarcerated in high school).
@sciencenerd "Educational issues go much much beyond just test scores that it would be futile to focus on them.
I would rather focus on better education, maybe more or better classes in English/math etc."
The point is that better math and English skills result in an outcome of higher test scores. As I said in #109, “Big first steps could be extending the k-12 school year by a month, increasing the emphasis on English and math, and increasing the level of contact, dialogue, and exchange of information between schools and parents.”
Many school systems are not educating students effectively, and we know what needs to be done in many cases. Better support for families in poverty, engaging the parents, building character, more thoroughly developing a solid base of early reading and math skills, and extending the school year.
All of these things are a good investment: graduation rates rise, incarceration rates fall, job skills rise, and unemployment falls.
I was wondering about the higher rates of incarceration. Is that true among those from wealthy families as well? Black males commit more violent crime percentage wise than any other group. One can argue that they are picked up more often for minor offenses than white males for the same infraction, but for violent crime, murder, rape, assault, etc. I doubt that is true. And most is black on black crime. Being the victim of a serious crime is likely to impact earnings also given the physical injuries, emotional trauma and so forth.
As far as educational levels, in California black males score the lowest of any group on reading and math tests. The study I found was not correlated to income level.
Well I see a big mystery, when it comes to rich black boys. What we’re trying to explain here is why 22% of black boys brought up in wealthy families end up in the bottom quintile of income, while only 10% of similar white boys end up in the bottom quintile. How would lower high school completion and higher incarceration explain this? Are there 12% more high school dropouts or incarcerated men among the black men in this cohort than the white men? And to the extent that unemployment is an explanation-- well, it’s not really an explanation until we find out WHY there is higher unemployment in this cohort.
How do dropping out of high school, being incarcerated and being unemployed explain the results for rich boys?
If the statistics even exist, do boys who grow up in wealthy black households have a higher percentage of dropping out, being incarcerated and being unemployed than white boys who grow up in wealthy households? That would be the question to be answered.
? It seems obvious. If you drop out of high school, your future is bleak, even if your family is wealthy. If you go to jail, your earnings potential is low, no matter what. If you don’t have a job…,you aren’t making money.
Unless your family has given you millions or has provided you a high paying job, you probably aren’t going to get one with those problems. That explains it.
What isn’t explained is why these kids from wealthy families have these income depressing problems.
My question is, why do you believe that these kids from wealthy families DO have these income depressing problems? What is your evidence for this assertion? I don’t think the incidence of incarceration and dropping out of high school among black kids from wealthy families is anything like the level needed to explain these results.
Thinking about why ‘black boys raised in wealthy households don’t become wealthy adults but white boys do’ is an interesting exercise. It makes one think about one’s own observations, which although are anecdotal in nature, may contribute to the discussion.
I live in a predominantly white, affluent community. My neighbors in general are educated, kind and not overtly racist. However I admit I am a little surprised that some of these same neighbors who support the notion of equality, see diversity as a threat. It isn’t that they see minorities as inferior, but that they are being usurped.
There really is power in numbers and in my opinion affluent blacks have suffered from a lack of affluent peers. As our demographics change and we attempt to question perception over facts, I believe we will see a slow change toward diversity at the top of our wealth distribution. As Cardinal Fang stated in the original post, “white men have a huge privilege that white women, black men and black women do not enjoy”. In my opinion, a lot of it can be explained by white, male tribalism.
**edited in an attempt to remove any political overtone…thanks, Cardinal Fang
Let’s try to keep this discussion away from current politics.
Maybe white males have all sorts of bad traits, tribalism, racism, sexism and all the rest, so rare in any other group. Maybe they have other traits too, persistence, determination, focus on goals, desire to succeed, etc.
Black males get dealt some fairly low cards in life. I am typically confused about what are effective solutions but I do feel that much of the blame can be laid at the feet of today’s societal norms. Every colleague and friend of mine had high aspirations for their children, particularly their sons. Thankfully, all have avoided most of the pitfalls and traps of contemporary race relations, but each of us knows that Black success is precarious, even if you are upper middle class or even wealthy. I am reminded about how millionaire Earl Graves’ son (now the CEO of his father’s company) was detained by police, who thought he was a little too well dressed to be on a commuter train to NYC (huh???). We’ve had this conversation before; Black parents have to emotionally endow their sons with armor (in addition to the usual ‘straight and narrow road’ advice). From this latest study, to the Shaker Heights syndrome, it’s an endless battle it seems.
I was not able to get past the pay wall on the article. Maybe I read too much. lol.
The title definitely raises some eyebrows but I wonder if it is a flaw in the stats that is generating such a disparity. Are the stats not taking into account other factors that cause the outcome? This issue is too huge to use only a few data points.
I find the woman stats (from comments here) to be most suspect. Highly educated woman with similar experience make comparable pay with men. I do agree the glass ceiling exists for CEO positions and boardrooms as that is still the old boys network but for the normal attainable job that most people work, the pay difference is not much.
Hard to make assumptions without statistics, one can only guess. Worthwhile for them to do a study on it, to get an accurate picture.
But these three things could be looked at individually. Why are there greater incarceration rates? Is it racism, a black kid will go to jail for the exact crime that a white kid committed, who doesn’t go to jail? Or are the black boys committing more (or worse) crimes? IFilies with less money to hire lawyers? I don’t know, but it’s worth looking at.
Employment. It is very likely racism is a factor, but is there something else? Friends and family connections, maybe. And as stated before, having a higher income doesn’t mean you’re wealthy.If they aren’t comparing assets and bank accounts, it’s not really that accurate of a study. Making a high income with plenty of debt and no assets is probably less stabilizing than a lower income with no debt.
Dropping out of high school…I have no guess as to higher rates for that.
What I would find interesting would be a comparison of the successful parents to the unsuccessful children