<p>This is completely spot-on. My company paid for tons of MBA’s at Booth and Kellogg yet hired from a wide variety of undergrads. Contrary to what the high school seniors on CC seem to think, they really didn’t distinguish between their crop of new hires from Harvard and their crop of new hires from Notre Dame or Northwestern or Michigan. And sometimes they threw in a “lower” school as well, just because someone in hr or marketing had some kind of tie to that school. There just isn’t this “tiering” in real life that unworldly CC’ers pretend exists.</p>
<p>I dunno, PG - some of us have actually walked the walk of encouraging our very talented children to attend “lower-ranked” schools, for many reasons. Sometimes the dream school is just not affordable, especially if medical school or law school is anticipated, sometimes there are strong geographic preferences or a specialized program that is especially attractive, and sometimes we suspect that our child can get better teaching or mentoring in an honors college, where they are more likely to stand out from the crowd. And sometimes our children are just not ready to compete with with the best-prepared students around, but will be ready after a few years at lesser-known u.</p>
<p>However, many of us parents have discovered that for those of our children who decide that they want to go straight to work rather than to grad school, in the current world of corporate recruitment (not the world of ten, twenty or thirty years ago), increasing numbers of companies recruit new engineering or business grads at the undergrad level only at a diminishing number of schools (which could include a few lower-ranked schools because an exec has a tie to these schools)and refer all other potential hires to their web sites, where all but a very few get lost in the pile. </p>
<p>Quite a few companies have cut down on the numbers of schools they visit, even if they have not instituted a hiring freeze, and the schools that are cut are likely to be those with lower rankings. New grads also complain that lots of companies whine and carry on to the whazoos about how they are being forced to off-shore or bring in H1B’s to fill their STEM positions because of lagging STEM education in this country before they have even taken a look at graduates of “lesser-ranked” institutions, even the types of graduates who are still attractive to the top graduate schools in our country, and find later on that they can easily hold their own among graduates from other countries, and not just because they are native English speakers. </p>
<p>Please, someone who works in current recruitment in these fields tell me that this isn’t really true and that these new grads are just making things up???</p>
<p>It might be tru for very very few places of employment at very few locations / cities. Absolutely not true for most place of employment/Grad Schools/Med. Schools,…etc. The reason for great representation is not the name of the school but the fact that students at Elite colleges are already pre-selected due to the selectivity of UG. however, some Honors at state schools have the same criteria as top UG’s (like being top 2% of HS class, top SAT/ACT scores). As you might find out, representation from Honors programs will be also high. I am trying to compare apples to apples and not to oranges. I am familiar with Med. School acceptance process. They will not consider anybody below certain college GPA / MCAT score no matter what UG they went to (as one example). However, representation of Ivy/Elite is higher at Med. School simply for the reason of higher caliber HS kids who went to Ivy/Elite UG’s. the acceptance rate for this type of kids (mostly in Honors) from state schools is also very high.</p>
<p>Not really…Until about 10 years ago, MIT really didn’t care about extracurriculars. Yet, they were heavily recruited by consulting firms. I know a bunch of people at McKinsey and Boston Consulting Group who went to MIT. They didn’t have any interesting ECs. They were just outstanding students in high school and MIT. That’s it.</p>
<p>I have not heard this complaint about medical school acceptances from honors colleges, but have heard that students entering honors colleges are probably more likely to continue on to medical school than a cohort of similar students entering elite schools, because honors students at state schools are more likely to take pre-med prereq’s in smaller sections with better supports in place and professors vetted for teaching ability than counterparts taking the same courses at elite schools. Similarly, the student who enters an honors program might be more likely to develop the credentials necesary to enter graduate school than a similar student entering an elite school.</p>
<p>I am hearing however that in areas in which large numbers of students not going to graduate school or into the military have traditionally found their entry-level jobs through on-campus recruitment (business and engineering) that begins at the internship level, large and well-known employers are less likely to visit lesser-known campuses or even accept on-line applications than was the case only a few years ago. </p>
<p>Here in PA, this might mean that an employer from outside of the area might come to town to visit Penn but not Drexel or Temple, or Carnegie-Mellon but not Pitt, even though honors students at the latter schools might remain very attractive to medical schools or graduate schools.</p>
<p>This does not seem to be the case of a few companies in a few industries, but of corporations that are houshold names. (And not just Google…) I am also hearing that when these companies do go “slumming” at state schools, they are looking not for honors college grads, but for URM’s and women in STEM fields.</p>
<p>I am hearing this from both recent graduates and from people working in university placement offices that struggle to bring recruiters to their campuses as well as the better-known ones. I am also hearing that this was not as big an issue in years past when the economy was more robust.</p>
<p>I thought the 1-4 minute perusal principal and the smart stamp concept mentioned in the OP’s link makes complete sense. Sure, you can find great students everywhere, and wonderfuo diamonds-in-the-rough at lower-ranked schools, but it might be more work and time for the recruiters to find them when they know they can get very,very good based on college attended and success there. Another point is that the students coming from the elites, by virtue of their often successful families and friends, can bring their own networks to the company which might prove to be beneficial to the hiring firm at some point. My son witnessed a lower-performing Harvard kid get chosen from the group of summer interns for a permanent job, over a better-liked and harder-working kid from outside the top 4, because the father of the Harvard kid was CFO of a company that that company was trying to do business with. In that case the connection was known in advance, but I wonder if there may be a presumption of ready-made connections credited to the elite grad.</p>
<p>Re: post #44. Your point is irrelevant because the firms going to MIT then and often now were/are looking for “quants” who aren’t expected to have social skills.</p>
<p>Well, I guess it depends on what firms you are talking about. McKinsey and BCG are the high-end consulting firms, unless you are saying they are looking for people for quant jobs at MIT and look to fill other jobs at HYP. I don’t think this is true, though, from what my friends tell me. </p>
<p>BTW, while quantitative skills are useful for McKinsey, the jobs people get really aren’t scientific consulting like, say, Anderson consulting…</p>
<p>“honors students at state schools are more likely to take pre-med prereq’s in smaller sections with better supports in place and professors vetted for teaching ability than counterparts taking the same courses at elite schools”</p>
<p>-although I do not know about situation at elite schools, it is definitely very true about Honors programs. Also, state UG loves thier very top students and show the love at every possible occasion, not only with Merit awards but also with the best jobs on campus, internship opportunities of student’s choice, various awards at graduation, all combined will increas chances at any future destination, job, grad. school, Med. School, whatever. So, when one say that Ivy/Elite have a lot to offer, I would say that the caliber of students that attend Ivy/Elite would have much more and much easier at state school and being surrounded with the same caliber students as they are and most likely going there for free (Merit awards) to top it all.</p>
<p>I have met “Andersen Consultans” in the mid-eighties. Yes, that is how they behaved then (do not know current status), very snobby, dressed like in uniform in very expansive suits, looking down on everybody, we had whole team of them on our floor, they did not mix with us, mortals. We did not like them, finally breathed when they left.</p>
<p>Well, everyone in the mid-eighties dressed in suits back then, so they weren’t any different from anyone else :-). I laugh when I think of those white shirts with floppy bow-ties and how it was “daring” to wear anything other than nude hose!</p>
<p>FYI - and a little off topic. McKinsey uses an exam with “case samples” in hiring. There are several examples posted on line in various places. They aren’t all that tough and require no real business knowledge, but they are interesting because you can’t use a calculator. They are a nice diversion for anyone interested.</p>
<p>We use an actual written semi-technical exam where I work. Often even applicants with impressive degrees and backgrounds bomb it for some reason.</p>
<p>In the mid-eighties, my BCG interviewer asked me about my senior thesis (which was two mathematical models of a particular pricing phenomenon), and then had me write out the equations and defend it. It was pretty tough stuff! But IMO they were really evaluating how well you could think on your feet and respond to tough questioning … not the actual substance. I’m a pretty good think-on-my-feet person and that’s a useful life skill.</p>
I’m skeptical about this–I suspect that the reason pre-meds at elites might be less likely to go on the med school (if this is true) is that kids at elites might be more likely in general to change their majors. I’d have to see some figures before I believe that those public honors college kids really do better in going on to grad school than kids from elite privates. That seems very unlikely to me.</p>
<p>Hunt - I too would like to see statistics from both state honors colleges and elites wrt the percentages of students entering with seemingly strong credentials (unweighted GPA at 3.8 or above in rigorous program, SAT’s in the 730 to 800 range) who apply as prospective pre-meds and later attend medical school. The sheer numbers of such students at elite schools would likely be significantly greater, but it does not seem at all unlikely to me that the percentages would be smaller. </p>
<p>It could be that students entering elite schools are more open to the idea of changing majors (and these schools generally offer many strong majors to choose from, so a student who is uncertain might have already decided that they would be better off at an elite school), but it could also be that many medical school hopefuls are changing majors after an encounter with an especially difficult weeder course that is not taught well, or graded on a harsh curve. Organic chemistry is tough everywhere, but it is far tougher to get an A or even a B in this class at some schools than at others, and even pre-med advisors at elite schools will tell some students who ask, to take this class elsewhere over the summer if they have a choice. </p>
<p>And even some very smart students will just do better in a smaller classroom where the professor knows every student’s name, and expectations for prompt and frequent feed-back are high, even if exams are rough, as is typical for an honors college course. Other smart students who are “average” for an elite school but ahead of most other students at a respectable state school will do better in a large classroom where they are easily heads and shoulders above the crowd. Just saying…</p>
<p>Anecdotally, we have also observed over the years among Frazzled kids and friends that such students also seem more likely <em>as a group</em> to have the types of experiences that would encourage students to remain in their STEM majors if they matriculate to state honors colleges (many of which host some world-renowned graduate level STEM programs) than at private elites, including opportunties for undergrad research and smaller intro classes. Again, it would be interesting to see the numbers.</p>
<p>In the meantime, I would advise prospective students interested in medical school or graduate school in STEM to ask about the numbers of freshmen who drop out of pre-med or STEM after a semester or two, if they are deciding between an elite school or a public school honors college. I would also ask about the numbers of students who get involved in undergrad research, the stage at which they involved, and the process by which they are selected. Some elite schools seem to do a better job at involving their “average” students in research than others.</p>
<p>My sister worked for the now defunct Anderson and works, now, as a consultant. Yes, she has her MBA from Booth, but when she went to undergrad she went to a place that probably doesn’t even have a link on CC and got her accounting degree, became a CPA and happened to be exceptional.</p>
<p>One of my sister in laws works in recruitment for one of these firms you guys keep mentioning on this thread, and I will say they recruit widely and not from only top 25 or even only top 50 universities. They do care about college GPA’s. But, they also care about how the candidate presents in their interactions. For example, far more of a disqualifier than not going to Harvard is not sending a thank you note, not having a good handshake, not making good eye contact, sloppy clothing, unkempt hair, wierd facial hair on guys. These are kids who want to be consultants. But, and this is the error most people make on CC. The company does not believe they are getting a ‘trained’ employee when they hire out of college. They believe they are getting a person who could do the work in college and can be trained. But, being personable, having etiquette, being well-spoken and engaging? This is what they are looking for.</p>
<p>As for tech companies, I am personally familiar with one of the biggest recruiting firms for the tech companies, and I can tell you that for the most part they prefer to hire out the recruiting. </p>
<p>Above all, though, encourage your kids to form strong relationships with people. Who you know is as important as where you go to school, maybe more so. Probably more so, to be honest. If I called up any one of these people and said, “I met this kid.” Or, 'this young woman nannied for me one summer and she was great." They would get an interview immediately. I’m not a consultant, nor do I work in the tech field. I got my personal trainer an interview at an amazing company when he graduated with a business degree from a university you’ve probably never heard of. They loved him and hired him. My first job came from a customer who became a regular when I was waiting tables in undergrad. He kept up with me and the semester I was due to graduate brought me in to HR. Your kids should develop relationships no matter where they go to school or what they are doing with their time. fwiw</p>