Terri Schiavo Should Die in Peace

<p>"If the spoiled elite, in your view, are wasting their money on self indulgence, how could you support a tax policy that rewards them with more billions?! "</p>

<p>The fact is that if you are going to have a tax reduction so that the entire economy benefits (consult with the latest Nobel lauriate if you doubt me), then by definition the rich will benefit the most since they are the ones who pay the bulk of the taxes - it’s simple mathematics (its hard to cut taxes on someone who doesn’t pay taxes). A thriving economy is one that gives us unemployment rates far lower than places like Europe. This in turn creates an environment in which both private money and tax revenues are available for social programs. If you think this is inadequate, you are free to forgo your next trip to Paris and donate the money to the homeless.</p>

<p>splain somehting
So Terri Salvo has been kept alive in florida because she had a malpractice suit that apparently paid for her care for 8 years till medicaid kicked in ,is a cause celebre by a man who signed a law when in Texas that if a family * could not pay* they would be removed from life support regardless of families wishes if there was no hope of revival.
Now it seems that Terri Salvo has no hope of revival being that she has been in this state for 15 years and her court appointed guardian does not claim that she responds to stimuli consistently, but this same man who signed the bill into law that allowed a 6- month old baby to be taken off life support this week, is now rushing back to the white house because this is a top political and moral issue?</p>

<p><a href=“http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002215324_texaslaw22.html[/url]”>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002215324_texaslaw22.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>OK, I’ll explain it to you. As usual, there are two sides to every issue. Unfortunately, the media is not always good about showing both sides - in particular when Bush is involved. Here is the full story:</p>

<p>In August 1996 the Journal of the American Medical Association published an article describing procedures then in effect in Houston hospitals. Under these procedures, if a doctor wished to deny a patient lifesaving medical treatment and the patient or the patient’s surrogate instead steadfastly expressed a desire for life, the doctor would submit the case to the hospital ethics committee. The patient or surrogate would be given 72 hours notice of the committee meeting would be allowed to plead for the patient’s life at it. During that short 72 hour period, the patient or surrogate, while preparing to argue for life, could also try to find another health care provider willing to give the lifesaving treatment, food or fluids. </p>

<p>If the ethics committee decided for death, under these procedures there was no appeal. There was no provision that the food, fluids, or lifesaving treatment be provided after the decision while the patient or family tried to find another hospital willing to keep the patient alive.</p>

<p>So under these procedures, the hospitals in Houston were denying life-saving treatment, food and fluids against the wishes of patients and their families, when the hospital ethics committees said their quality of life was too poor. Patients and families were being given only 72 hours after being notified of the proposed denial to find another health care provider. </p>

<p>In 1997 there was an advance directives bill going through the Texas legislature that would have given specific legal sanction to such involuntary denial of life-saving treatment. An effort in the Texas legislature to amend the bill to require treatment pending transfer to a health care provider willing to provide the life-saving treatment had been defeated. When that bill reached Governor George Bush’s desk, he vetoed it, and said he was vetoing it precisely because it authorized hospitals to deny lifesaving medical treatment, food, and fluids against the will of the patients. </p>

<p>But even without that bill, these procedures were still going on. So there was an effort in the next sitting of the legislature, in 1999, to pass protective legislation. Unfortunately, the votes just weren’t there to require lifesaving treatment, food, or fluids be provided by unwilling hospitals. So there were negotiations that resulted in a bill that gave partial protection. That 1999 bill: </p>

<p>first, formalized more protections for in-hospital review
second, gave patients 10 days of treatment while seeking transfer, and
third, authorized court proceedings to extend the 10 days for reasonable additional periods to accomplish transfer. </p>

<p>Now this was not what patient advocates wanted and it wasn’t what Governor Bush wanted. However, it was an important advance over the existing situation of no legal requirement of treatment pending transfer, for any period of time. The votes were not there in the Texas legislature to accomplish a more protective bill. So Governor Bush signed it because it was an improvement over the existing law.</p>

<p>Edit: When I saw your post, I assumed I knew how the situation was portrayed in the media - that Bush was acting hypocritically. That is why I gave you the full story to show he wasn’t. However, I then read the article that you linked and noted that they did indeed include much of the detail that I provided above. In typical fashion they slanted the headline and provided the stuff that is most damning of Bush up front - knowing that liberals will read as much of the article as they think they need to confirm their pre-existing beliefs and then stop reading. True enough - you read what you wanted and then posted based on what you wanted to post to convey a negative and hypocritical image of Bush. Too bad the facts of the case show him to be remarkably consistent.</p>

<p>

What grotesque distortions! EK4, you should read your own articles carefully before you post them. It’s clear from your article that Bush, having defeated a Democratic governor and dealing with a perrenially Democratic legislature, negotiated the best deal he could get, which improved the situation for patients and families from what had existed. “It was the best we could achieve at the time, better than the existing state of the law. … But when we have the ability to change the law to be more protective, certainly we would do that…” But you, EK4, choose to misrepresent that as a situation in which things were going along fine for these poor families, until the vile BushHitler came along and proposed wholesale slaughter of indigent patients. As for the 6-month old, we really don’t know much of her condition except that when she was removed from life support, she died “almost immediately,” which means she was on much more than a feeding tube. Most of us who object to this Schiavo situation do so because all she needs is nourishment–no heart-lung machines, or anything like that. So, what is the rush to starve this poor woman to death?</p>

<p>I strongly recommend that everyone read the following interview in Salon:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/03/22/father_john/index.html[/url]”>http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/03/22/father_john/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I believe that it is a clear discussion about this matter and what it is all about.</p>

<p>here is another article

</p>

<p><a href=“http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/217023_texas22.html[/url]”>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/217023_texas22.html&lt;/a&gt;
The baby was being kept alive with ventilator Terri is being kept alive with a feeding tube- as long as she gets nourishment her body will be kept “alive”
I had my cat euthanized even though she was still walking around- she was 21 and being kept alive by sub Q fluids, as long as she recieved fluids she would live- but I felt it would be cruel and unusual to keep her alive- I feel the same for Terri- that it is cruel to persist for 15 plus years to keep her body alive.</p>

<p>EK4: Why do you persist in showing one side of an argument when it has been shown by two people to be bogus?</p>

<p>On another vein, I did not see this show, but just saw this transcript of an interview with a doctor who has been nominated for a Nobel prize in dealing with brain injuries such as Terri’s. He has spent 10 hours with Terri and gone through all of her medical records. His conclusion: with proper care she can be rehabilitated. This is amazing. We give confessed murderers more protection under the law.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151148,00.html[/url]”>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151148,00.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Lets get another look at this Doctor Shall We:</p>

<p>He is not all he claims, made misleading statements. and is not credible, that according to the court records. now he is trying to save his reputation …</p>

<p><a href=“http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002[/url]”>http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.201k.com/[/url]”>http://www.201k.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Read the court transcripts from his testimony and the judges remarks…nominated means nothing…</p>

<p>read about the doctors work from unbiased sources…it very interesting…</p>

<p>PS- I could nominate someone for a Nobel Prize.</p>

<p><a href=“http://pekinprattles.blogspot.com/[/url]”>http://pekinprattles.blogspot.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>this contains the judges rulings…</p>

<p>the links provided by Brigid , FF & oldflowerchild were very instructive.</p>

<p>From the nobel prize website"</p>

<p>Has X been nominated as a candidate for the Nobel Prize, or where do I find a list of Nobel Prize nominees?</p>

<p>According to the Statutes of the Nobel Foundation, information about the nominations is not to be disclosed, publicly or privately, for a period of fifty years. The restriction not only concerns the nominees and nominators, but also investigations and opinions in the awarding of a prize. Nomination information older than fifty years is public. At this web site the Nomination Databases for the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, 1901-1949 and for the Nobel Peace Prize, 1901-1951 are now available. Nomination Databases for the other prize categories will follow shortl</p>

<p>From Nobleprize.org site</p>

<p>The Nominators – Physiology or Medicine</p>

<p>Right to submit proposals for the award of the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, based on the principle of competence and universality, shall by statute be enjoyed by:

  1. Members of the Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm;
  2. Swedish and foreign members of the medical class of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences;
  3. Nobel Laureates in Physiology or Medicine;
  4. Members of the Nobel Committee not qualified under paragraph 1 above;
  5. Holders of established posts as professors at the faculties of medicine in Sweden and holders of similar posts at the faculties of medicine or similar institutions in Denmark, Finland, Iceland and Norway;
  6. Holders of similar posts at no fewer than six other faculties of medicine selected by the Assembly, with a view to ensuring the appropriate distribution of the task among various countries and their seats of learning; and
  7. Practitioners of natural sciences whom the Assembly may otherwise see fit to approach.</p>

<p>Decisions concerning the selection of the persons appointed under paragraphs 6 and 7 above are taken before the end of May each year on the recommendation of the Nobel Committee.</p>

<p>Prize-Awarder: The Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm
Nomination Database »</p>

<p>Was our congressman a doctor?</p>

<p>"Thanks for your letter and point about our confidentiality regarding nominees. Specific answers to your questions:

  1. All nominations, nominees and nominators are kept in strict confidentiality here for 50 years.
  2. There is no way for any person to get confirmation/message from here whether they were nominated or not for any year during the last 50 years.
  3. Therefore, if anyone claims being nominated it is never with support from here and should not be regarded as a valid claim.
  4. The Nobel Foundation acts on all misuses of the Nobel name, but do not always act on nomination claims since there are so many who claim nominations that the Nobel system simply leaves them without specific action and only inform to all asking that nomination claims are by definition non-valid." from the Nobel Prize Group to a Doctor</p>

<p>momsdreams, I think I agree with you, but I’m not sure.</p>

<p>My point: Terri did NOT leave written instructions. Precisely because none of us can know what she would want, she should be fed and cared for by her biological family. </p>

<p>My point about divorce was just an example. My point is that in life or death matters it is impossible for us to know how we would actually react were we to be in her shoes. Doctors apparently disagree on her situation so it’s not like we have a definitive on what she knows or when she has spots of knowing it, if at all. But hey, if she doesn’t know anything then what the heck - let her just keep on the way she is and let her parents take care of her. And if she <em>is</em> cognizant in any way, then I am horrified at the possibility that she enjoys her parents’ and siblings’ love and is afraid to die or does not want to die yet. Of course the possibility exists that if she is cognizant she does, indeed, want to die, but with no way of knowing, WHY ARE WE CHOOSING TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF HER DEATH? </p>

<p>This just screams of some in our society devaluing those who are not with full faculties. Do we stop spoon feeding the elderly with alzheimer’s now? What is the difference? Let’s say we do - then what is to stop withholding nutrition from the <em>slightly</em> senile? Where do we draw the line? This is what I mean by “human rights” being a moving target. Rights are static and change from society to society. Once you start down that road to devaluing life you will lose your right to choose for herself and will have others choosing for you.</p>

<p>We are not talking about mechanical breathing or heartbeating here - this is the basic food and water. I have no problem with disconnecting machines, but this is just wrong.</p>

<p>“read about the doctors work from unbiased sources…it very interesting…”</p>

<p>I tried to follow your advice, but couldn’t find any unbiased sites. Media Matters is definitely not unbiased. Granted, all of the pro-Hammesfahr sites that I found seem equally biased. But… since we are talking a human life here, shouldn’t we be inclined to err on the side of life versus death?</p>

<p>funding father, do you not see that Sean Hannity’s broadcast is propaganda? </p>

<p>Begin with their “vigil”-style broadcast outside the nursing home. Then, several times, Hannity refers to the quack doctor as a “Nobel nominee”-- when the very term is BS! And Dan Rather was a bad fact checker!!</p>

<p>Like I said, I didn’t see the show - only the transcript. If Sean Hannity were the person making the claim I would view it just as suspect as if Al Franken were making it. However, when a board certified doctor who specializes in these cases makes the point, who are you or I to contradict him? He may indeed be a “quack”, but I haven’t seen any evidence of that. Have you? Until we conclude that he is indeed a quack, if it were your kid laying there, I would hope for your kid’s sake that you would have more conclusive proof of his illigitimacy than the fact that he appears on a TV show that you don’t approve of.</p>

<p>He doesn’t specialize in these case, he has no studies, no proof, READ WHAT THE JUDGE SAID>>Its not the tv show, its what the judge asked for and what the DR did not have- he had no proof of his claims, the video of his claims with Terri did not come off as true, he made statements about a Nobel nomination to give himself credibility which went against the Nobel Prize Committe Rules, he does not allow himself to be put up to scrutinty…</p>

<p>Seems like board certified neurologist is pretty close to specializing in this area to me. Are you more qualified to discuss medical diagnosis? I haven’t seen you substantiate any of your claims from an unbiased source as to his being a fraud. When you do so, I’ll read them.</p>

<p>I really didn’t want to jump in on this thread. But I will…</p>

<p>Fundingfather, why do you continue to mention someone (who is a Democrat) give up a trip to Paris? I find that terribly condescending. What does that have to do with anything?</p>

<p>I’ve never seen so many people blindly follow the party line as I have with the Republicans.</p>

<p>This issue should not have a thing to do with politics. It’s scary that the government is involved in any way. </p>

<p>I feel bad for the entire family of Terri Schiavo, her husband included.</p>