Texas A&M Should Not Do Away With Academic Admission

This is simply wrong:

1.1. What Does the SAT Measure?

The Scholastic Assessment Test (SAT) and American College Test (ACT) are two examples of standardized tests widely used in college admissions. Perhaps because of the high stakes nature of these exams and the fact they are administered to over a million students every year, they have come under fire despite their considerable psychometric reliability and validity. One of the most common critiques of the SAT is that it is nothing more than a “wealth test” [7]. It has been argued that the verbal section of the SAT measures “the size of student houses” [8] and that “the only thing the SAT predicts well now is socioeconomic status” [9]. However, these statements are contradicted by the fact that the SAT and ACT both actually measure general intelligence or g to a large degree [10,11], see also [12], despite the test companies themselves marketing them as academic or achievement measures. For example, Frey and Detterman [10] showed the correlation between g derived from the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB) and the SAT in a sample of 917 participants was 0.82, and Koenig et al. [11] showed the correlation between g derived from the ASVAB and the ACT in a sample of 1075 participants was 0.77. SAT scores are also correlated between 0.75 to 0.86 with GRE scores (see [13,14], respectively), which is additional evidence suggesting that the SAT measures something stable, like general ability or IQ. As Hunt ([15], p. 157) pointed out, “College entrance is substantially a cognitive screening process.” In fact, Kelley [1] noted that the overlap between intelligence tests and school achievement tests was about 90% and in their independent analysis Coleman and Cureton [2] noted that this overlap was about 95%. Thus, this overlap has been noted for many decades.

Such statements are also contradicted by the broad research evidence showing the predictive validity of all kinds of standardized achievement tests on important academic and career outcomes (e.g., [16]), and the effects of cognitive ability on life outcomes are stronger than the effects of wealth or SES [17]. The fact that the SAT and ACT measure g in part, serve as reasonable proxies for g, and that many researchers, the test companies themselves, and the public do not understand and accept this, is a core reason myths such as the idea that these tests are “wealth tests” continue to persist (e.g., see “Why the new SAT scores are meaningless” in The Washington Post by Strauss [18]). Counter to claims of such tests being “biased,” low income talent has been shown to be underperforming relative to their ability level [19], and could be identified more fairly by “universal screening” of all students [20–23].

One class of variables that are directly relevant to the field of education broadly is the structure of cognitive abilities, specifically general intelligence or g [24–27]. Spearman [28] classically argued that the specific content of mental tests was not all that important because g enters into the performance on any mental test. Research has corroborated his initial claim, showing that g is measured to some extent by nearly any challenging cognitive test with a variety of question types and tasks, independent of analytic technique or items used [26,29], and even when tests are initially designed to measure a variety of achievements and abilities, g is found (e.g., [30,31]). Cognitive g and academic achievement g are roughly the same from a measurement perspective [32], meaning the variance accounted for by g among cognitive ability tests is roughly the same variance as that accounted for by g among academic achievement tests. The SAT and ACT are often thought of as achievement and/or aptitude tests but as indicated earlier, are in fact reasonable proxies for g [10–12].

https://doi.org/10.3390/jintelligence6030037

2.1. The SAT Measures Intelligence

Although the principal finding of Frey and Detterman has been established for 15 years, it bears repeating: the SAT is a good measure of intelligence [1]. Despite scientific consensus around that statement, some are remarkably resistant to accept the evidence of such an assertion. In the wake of a recent college admissions cheating scandal, Shapiro and Goldstein reported, in a piece for the New York Times, “The SAT and ACT are not aptitude or IQ tests” [6]. While perhaps this should not be alarming, as the authors are not experts in the field, the publication reached more than one million subscribers in the digital edition (the article also appeared on page A14 in the print edition, reaching hundreds of thousands more). And it is false, not a matter of opinion, but rather directly contradicted by evidence.

For years, SAT developers and administrators have declined to call the test what it is; this despite the fact that the SAT can trace its roots through the Army Alpha and Beta tests and back to the original Binet test of intelligence [7]. This is not to say that these organizations directly refute Frey and Detterman; rather, they are silent. On the ETS website, the word intelligence does not appear on the pages containing frequently asked questions, the purpose of testing, or the ETS glossary. If one were to look at the relevant College Board materials (and this author did, rather thoroughly), there are no references to intelligence in the test specifications for the redesigned SAT, the validity study of the redesigned SAT, the technical manual, or the SAT understanding scores brochure.

Further, while writing this paper, I entered the text “does the SAT measure intelligence” into the Google search engine. Of the first 10 entries, the first (an advertisement) was a link to the College Board for scheduling the SAT, four were links to news sites offering mixed opinions, and fully half were links to test prep companies or authors, who all indicated the test is not a measure of intelligence. This is presumably because acknowledging the test as measure of intelligence would decrease consumers’ belief that scores could be vastly improved with adequate coaching (even though there is substantial evidence that coaching does little to change test scores). One test prep book author’s blog was also the “featured snippet”, or the answer highlighted for searchers just below the ad. In the snippet, the author made the claims that “The SAT does not measure how intelligent you are. Experts disagree whether intelligence can be measured at all, in truth” [8]—little wonder, then, that there is such confusion about the test.

https://doi.org/10.3390/jintelligence7040026

I was watching this four year old playing Mozart and at the end, they interviewed the parents. The parents have no, nada, zero music background. Yes, it happens. You don’t have to have high ses parents to be able to be good/exceptional at something. Is this the norm? No. That’s the same for students. There are and will always be these stand out kids. I remember reading an article about a neurosurgeon. During high school years, her family was so poor that she would have to go to a public library to study. Does this happen? Yes. Is this the norm? No. Next time when you see your doctor, ask to see what kind of background her/his family is. I bet there’s a high chance s/he will tell you her/his mom/dad/sister/brother/uncle/aunt/grandparent is/was a doctor. Ask the owner of the famous family restaurant that you go to see how it was established. I bet it probably started generations before. I have a friend from my undergraduate. He was doing fine as an engineering student. Guess what he did when he graduated? He never works for a day. He went for a degree to hang on the wall. He opened a restaurant to expand his family’s business. There’s certainly exceptions/differences but kids usually follow their parents’ paths or the paths the parents influenced them. It’s expected that higher ses kids tend to do better on tests/schools. Maybe it runs in the family or s/he’s financially advantaged. Take a look at this:

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/10/29/sat-scores-are-gaps-remain-significant-among-racial-and-ethnic-groups

For those that make so strong almost like factual statements about sat and act, how much do you know about these tests? If you don’t know much about the test, you should not make those statements based on what you read/hear here and there. I studied with my son to prep for him. I can tell you except matrix on act, the material is basic, mostly from algebra II and a bit of pre cal. Anyone with good solid background should be able to do well on this test. One from top x% from a “less fortunate” isd should have no problem. Like someone mentioned, there are many different ways to improve your test taking skills. My son’s isd put a group of students above certain levels of psat into a class to prep them to score higher. One of the things that the instructor told us day one was do not practice on the computers. That’s not how you’re tested on test days. You need to practice the same way, aka on paper. Khan is a great way to learn but certainly not the only effective way. If one does not have access to internet, they can get a prep book from many places.

Now the tests themselves
 Do they predict someone’s intelligence? Of course no. Do they predict if someone will succeed? You bet. Not so much about the math section but I can tell you being able to read fast and extract ideas/facts/errors will help students a long way. When these go further for higher education, that’s when reading skills become more critical, even during undergraduates. A lot of big schools expect students to read ahead and some expect a lot of reading. These tests are not perfect esp with the change about individual subject test on act and can not give adcom a complete picture about the applicant. But here is something worth thinking, majority of high achievers score/can score well on these tests. So that is why they have their values in the admission process. When all high schools are different, these scores are a safer bet for adcom to decide who is the applicant they want to accept.

UTD currently has incoming test stats higher than TAMU. But it doesn’t have football.

I’m exhausted. I put this thread off until I had so many posts that I ate my lunch and read through all of it.

I’m not adding my two cents in. Everyone has an opinion. All seem rational. Bottom line, people will succeed to whatever extent they can
 or they won’t. Where there’s a will
 and all that!

Anxious to see how next year plays out and I hope it allows more holistic well rounded students in as freshmen and the retention rate increases over the years. That’ll be the real measure of this new policy.

I’m really excited and proud of the direction that TAMU is taking in adopting tried and true admissions best practices. ALL of the bright, hard working, and high achieving students (with their wide range of strengths and talents) will undoubtedly benefit. So will TAMU!

By son is a senior and just went through the process and his made his big decision. He applied to TAMU, UT-Austin, UT-Dallas, UT-Arlington, UT-Tyler, Baylor and Alabama.

He made it into all but UT-Austin. States - 3.9 out of 4.0 GPA, top 21% and 1450 SAT.

UTD accepted him w/i a week in September, and he had to wait till December to learn he got a $6000 year AES award (scholarship). It was his top choice at first. By the time their scholarship came he had better offers from in and out of state. Sorry UTD.

Alabama accepted him in few weeks with a $28,000 per year scholarship, which almost covers OOS tuition. BAMA was impressive but we didn’t like the greek culture and over the top football. The campus was very nice and great engineering facilities, but we worried about lack of jobs in the area - especially internships.

UTA accepted him in a few weeks and awarded an Academic Scholarship of $12,000 per year about a month after applying. We actually found out after we got back home from visiting UTD. They seemed to have the best mix of size, facilities plus supportive staff and processes.

UT Tyler recently offered him scholarship that would cover tuition but he had to travel 5 hours to Tyler each way to interview for a full ride scholarship partly based on class rank and SAT scores, region and said interview. They may be up and coming but we feel he has better options. Oddly, they seemed to award their full ride scholarships to students from the local East Texas area - which makes no sense as they can live at home and don’t need the room/board. They don’t seem to be trying to draw from the statewide pool of talented students.

UT Austin offered CAP - useless for an Engineering major.

Baylor didn’t have the best engineering facilities, plus the cost of attendance was way too high. They use the CSS profile which doesn’t treat us as well as the Federal methodology. My son didn’t like how the girls where kept so far from the boys in the dorms and having to take religious classes.

TAMU - told him to expect an answer in mid-December, then was told it will be delayed until January. When he finally got into General Engineering they offered him no academic scholarships and peanuts for need based - $9000 of need left unmet. We found the TAMU Engineering process to be the most stressful. Having to wait on engineering was painful, though he got auto admit within a week all it did was raise our hopes and cost us a housing deposit we won’t use. We also did not like how he’d have to compete for his major - not worth the risk.

While the Zach looked awesome we realized the hours the maker space was open were surprisingly limited. It was not 24/7 like the building. Plus, we felt the campus was too crowded - cramming folks into the buses to the far away parking lot in the intense heat of October. We did not get that feel elsewhere.

Meanwhile, while waiting on TAMU, we went back and looked closely at where he got offers. We kept going back to how much he liked UT Arlington. They got great dorms and good facilities. UTA used to be part of the A&M system until it switched to UT - we found that interesting.

By the way, we found housing at UTA/UTD/UT Tyler to be way cheaper for the same type of room as TAMU. At these UT schools you can get a single room sharing a living room and restroom with two others in their own single rooms for $6400/year. TAMU has the similar Hullabaloo for $5300 per semester - that is significantly more.

TAMU has a lot older, crappy dorms compared to UTD, UTA and UT Tyler. All of UTD’s dorms were new and spacious. We did like the school spirit and the Howdy’s and it was long on the top of the list till we got the pitiful aid package.

Back to the subject, TAMU engineering has been holistic for years, this just makes the rest of TAMU catch up to what they were doing. They may find adding stress to the process, may steer folks away more than they expect.

So where did my son pick, UTA. He is going to get a good education, live in a nice dorm, and be close to his classes and everything his school and DFW has to offer. And he won’t be needing to into debt or have to work at a job just to make money. He can focus on studying and getting research and internships.

This is an interesting thread. SATs and ACTs are interesting, but look at the issues with the 6% and 10% rankings.

My oldest daughter never made a B. Her weighted GPA started as a 4.0 and has risen every year to around a 4.4 after 7 semesters. Her unweighted GPA has stayed at 4.0 throughout HS. At the end of her junior year, she was just inside the top 20% and is now around 15% or so.

I bring this up because it is a illustration of a problem with the top 10% or 6% rules. Looking back in my experience with her college admissions (well, A&M and tu in particular), if your kid isn’t in every honors class as a freshman in high school, they can never catch up to enter the top percentages required to gain auto entry to these schools.

Typically, admission to ‘points advantaged’ classes is based on entry placement tests, which sounds good enough on its face. However, it doesn’t seem fair that it’s possible to predict the top 10% on day 1 of freshman year so accurately. With the 5.0 scale applied to the honors classes, a kid with a 100 average in the standard class is equal to the kid with an 80 average in the honors class. And this boost is all due to the honors placement logic before the kids have done one assignment in high school. So your potential for admission to A&M and tu is heavily based on your parents prepping you for whatever the requirements are for entry into honors freshman HS classes. This is where the SES comes into play. A similarly gifted disadvantaged kid would need their parents to fight for their admission to these ‘points advantaged’ classes upon entry to high school. Good luck otherwise.

With this thread’s back and forth over SES and SAT, causation vs. causality, this issue of having parents that recognize this situation I’ve described is such a massive boost for their kids chances to make the auto admission levels.

There is no way that honors and standard classes are so well calibrated that a kid that makes a 100 in a standard class has achieved equivalent work as a kid with an 80 in an honors class. So forget SAT / ACT as a buy-in route and go fight tooth and nail to get your kid into ‘points advantaged‘ classes as a freshman. For similarly talented kids, the real game is won at the end of the 8th grade year.

Oh, sadly for the kids in the uber high performing districts- you are talking 6th grade (I’m a parent of a junior in AP Calculus AB). If you don’t take Algebra and Geometry in junior high you are not in the game.

And anyone is naive if they don’t realize that having parents that understand “the game” is a HUGE advantage. What it takes to succeed. Parents who did not go to college have no idea what it takes to succeed at some of these high schools.

The disadvantages facing first generation college students is significant.

^ Absolutely true. My kid was in one of those districts. She graduated near the top 1%. But that’s because I knew how to play the game and we had a strategy from end of 6th grade, though it had nothing to do with getting into TAMU or UT (attending either was never really part of the plan). My DD deviated from the plan once to take a non-honors class (against my advice) and it was almost disastrous. She recovered, but it kept her out of the top 10 students even though the mistake was made very early in hs.

Only savvy first gen students could achieve this in a competitive school district. I was one, so they definitely exist. However, that’s just not the norm. And those are the students I worry about, especially now that TAMU and UT are offering generous financial aid to low income students.

So, all in all, I think the move is a net positive. Isn’t holistic admissions the alternative to the top 6 and top 10 rules? So I’m surprised some people are against the change. There is no winning in Texas where UT and TAMU admissions is concerned, it seems.

@LoneStarGuy you just illustrated how to find fit, and holistic decision making PERFECTLY! I wish everyone would read what you wrote! This is exactly how applicants (and their families) should look at admissions options. Find fit in academics, financials, location, and culture. “Fit” isn’t just the name or a popularity contest!

Excellent approach, and your student is going to love and thrive at UTA! :slight_smile: I really love that he’s going to get a GREAT education, that will not culminate in a bunch of debt. Smart parents, and smart student!

@itsgettingreal21
You are seeing the reaction to the move away from clear, bright-line, objective standards toward opaque subjective requirements. Because as bad as the current process may be for uninformed students, it’s hardly better under a system where everyone has to play the “elective credits” game for four years of high school - a game that no one completely understands except that we know you really need to start playing when you are still a freshman if you want to be competitive for top colleges. (This game can get costly fast, in terms of both time and money.)

The holistic system turns essays into a competition to see who can describe their life in the most tragic and catastrophic terms, because no matter what it is you’ve achieved it’s more remarkable if you can show you achieved it despite some supposed dire circumstances that attended your childhood. Because of this you get essay after essay turning unremarkable childhoods into dramatic stories of oppression and subjugation, minor ailments became life threatening disorders, etc.

The holistic system opens the process up to the biases of the AO’s, that are typically recent graduates with humanities majors and progressive politics that have their own view of how the world should run and who they think would make a “good fit” on campuses. You can find videos on Youtube of them talking about how they have their favorites that they help into their institutions and can guess who are not their favorites. People that don’t share those world-views might not like AO’s subjective preferences having a bigger say in admissions decisions.

All that being said, you make good points. The problems you mention are real. I’m not sure what a perfect system would look like, but the reaction you are seeing, I think, is to people wanting clear bright-line rules about just what exactly it takes to get admitted into institutions. At least that’s my take on it.

Wow! Holistic admissions is actually the norm (the standard in academia), not some newfangled, just dreamt up touch-feely experimental process. The vast majority of colleges and universities in this country practice holistic admissions. And, “holistic” really does not mean “subjective” (though, some of the weighing criteria may be subjective, as they would have to be for students to be able to distinguish themselves). You can expand selection criteria with many objective criteria, not just two. Heaven knows TAMU and UT et al have been using well-established objective criteria all along, in their holistic reviews. Every UT student (even auto admits) go through holistic review. All review and engineering applicants (and performing arts) at TAMU go through holistic review. Just because you (proud and biased parent or student) don’t know the exact baselines, criteria, and weight that will, at any given time, meet the strategic needs of the college or university, doesn’t mean that the admissions committees don’t know.

*Rigor of school record is an objective measurement
*Class rank is an objective measurement
*Standardized test scores are an objective measurement AND scores in context of environment are an objective measurement (because the testing agencies provide the baselines and context)
*Academic GPA is an objective measurement
*Strength of writing is an objective measurement (note: what a student may write falls under a different review category)
*Academic record in relation to requested major is an objective measurement
*Some aspects of “personal achievement” fall under objective measurements (while other aspects are contextualized and more subjective)
*Many talents and abilities have very objective performance thresholds

Other review categories allow students the leeway to set themselves apart from their peers: content of essays (including overcoming obstacles), volunteer and work experience, as a few examples. These are different from “hooks”, and only have limited impact on the application overall. In other words, some kid could dream up the most dire story-- a 9th grade case of the sniffles on the family camping trip spun into a dire case of mesothelioma, while having to rescue a snowbound family who had resorted to cannibalism (where, naturally, the student corrected the errant ways of the cannibal family with his/her anecdotes from the mission trip to Disney World), therefore they should win admission to the CoE Computer Science as their prize, where they intend to further save the world form bad code. ← Yeah, believe it or not, stuff like this really doesn’t have that great of an impact on apps. AOs do love a good ‘overcoming adversity’ story, but the the most compelling ones rarely even know they were told. “The essay” isn’t the only other aspect of holistic admissions. Just like an ACT/SAT score, or GPA, or Class rank, etc
 It’s a single aspect. And, school counselors typically corroborate dire stories of illness, etc
, or the State DFPS (for kids in foster care or homeless), so it’s pretty easy to sniff out. Or in the case of the fictitious student above, the Mayo Clinic and National Geographic. :smiley:

If you want a system that allows rich parents to pay $15,000 to former admission’s officers to teach their kids how to game the system to get an unfair admissions advantage, congratulations - you’re in luck. That’s exactly what you are getting.

If you want to find an incognito excuse to keep otherwise well-qualified Asian kids from getting too many seats on campus, holistics is for you.

If you want wealthy kids getting research experience in subjects they know absolutely nothing about and starting fashionably liberal clubs that no one wants to join - just to get ahead of normal kids whose only upside is they are smart and hard working - the holistic admission system is perfect for you the way it is.

But for a lot of people, as I stated above, the problems of both systems are real. Doing mental gymnastics to pretend that the holistic admission system isn’t riffe with problems isn’t helping anyone. People are fed up with a system that demands so much gamesmanship just to be competitive. The holistic admissions process commonly used by most competitive colleges is a nightmare for regular parents.

But, once again as I noted above, that doesn’t mean current academic admissions is perfect. My point is only that well defined objective criteria is needed in the admissions process. A lot of the things you claimed are objective leaves me wondering if you know what the word “objective” means, no offense.

I 100% agree with this. My son ended middle school scoring in the 99th and 100th percentiles in the STARR tests in math and science, but his suburban high school would not let him enroll in pre-AP or AP classes as he needed assistance for dysgraphia - a writing disability. He struggled a in English and got his only B in high school freshman year, but in Biology he averaged 100% and then tested at the 100% percentile in the STARR - we asked about AP then and were told no. Finally, they had him move up to the more advanced math levels at the middle of his sophomore year after he kept setting the curve. He said the work was no harder (same material) but his grades even went up - as he said the students were more focused. The sad thing is as this is my first kid, I had no idea I should have pushed harder for him to get into those AP classes earlier. I went to college back in 1988 and things seemed much different then than now. AP classes in my state did not count more for GPA like they do here/now. Little did I know it but the school I went to for college was need-blind. I always wondered why a private, liberal arts school cost less than a state university. My mom had me apply after seeing a brochure - this was before the Internet.

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Like the wealthy parents who paid ‘admissions counselors’ to take the SAT/ACT for their students? Or, do you mean like the wealthy parents who can and do pay thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars for their kids to “prep” for their ‘intelligence tests’, with a veritable unlimited number of sittings to get to the desired score or superscore?

What well-qualified Asian kids are barred from college campuses? Do you mean the campus of their choice, 100% of the time. What race or culture gets to self-select both the qualifications, and the decision on behalf of a university, and in their own favor? In the real world, the universities do the selecting. Not the students who decide (unsurprisingly) that their own strongest qualities must be the golden keys to admission.

Your personal politics aside, have you ever been on a college campus
? Real college, not the TV version. It’s the melting pot of teens and young adults transitioning into adulthood. This is the place where students of every socio-economic class go to get an education, try new things, research, study, experiment, find their path. Most kids who start down a research path know very little about the subject matter, LOL!!! Typically, they show aptitude for, or interest in (or both, if the lead faculty member is lucky) the subject or the research.

No system is ever “perfect”. It doesn’t have to be. I’m a “regular parent” of a “regular kid” who has been able to navigate college admissions. For holistic admissions, I don’t see “nightmare”, I see level playing field for all students, not just the ones (like mine) whose parents can afford an advantageous college prep education and obstacle avoidance.

Gotta love the the common data set, and a sound understanding of objective vs. subjective measures are and how they’re evaluated.

Rigor of school record: Each school district or independent school defines the specific criteria that must be met (a number or combination of advanced/IB/AP/honors/dual enrollment, or on-level core classes that are the most academically challenging) to qualify as having taken the ‘most rigorous’ courses available. This is a box checked by a school counselor. Either the student did or the student didn’t meet the standards that are defined in the district catalog, and recorded with the Texas Education Agency. What do you think is NOT objective about a school providing the recorded standard, and checking the box (or not) that a student met the standard? The requirements are clearly documented. The college wants to know if the standard was met. The box is either checked or not checked. The counselor doesn’t base this on whether or not they like the kid, or whether or not they think the kid deserves it. There’s a referenceable benchmark. A kid either did or didn’t reach it. You imagine that’s not an objective measure
?

Class rank: This is about as objective a measure as it gets; simple math. For the schools that rank, each school district or independent school has a grading scale. Referenceable standards are documented on what that scale is, and how it’s measured (state law). From the scale, a cumulative GPA (grade point average) is used to rank students on either a weighted or unweighted scale. Student GPAs are aligned from highest to lowest. Rank is the objective measure of GPA positioning divided by the number of students in the graduating class. If a student has the 4th highest gpa in a class of 100, then the rank is 4/100.

Academic GPA: A letter or numeric value is applied to academic performance results. Each school district or independent school district sets what that scale is. It doesn’t change by the individual. The school board or governing body would have to vote or go through an applicable administrative process to change it, so it’s not a moving target. When evaluating GPA, colleges are evaluating the the computation of the cumulative alpha or numeric values, divided by number of classes relevant to that academic environment.

Strength of writing: Mechanics, use of language & conventions, organization, development of ideas, grammar & spelling, are all scoreable measures that colleges typically have a defined rubric to rate admission essays. As your high school student, in any English/Language Arts, literature, or writing class. Or, if they go to a real “competitive school” all or most of their core classes have a strong and definitive writing component to every assignment, project, and test (including STEM classes).

Subject matter is and style selection are subjective. The strength of the actual writing is not. Strong writing and critical thinking skills are actually a really big deal right now, and identified (out in the business world) as one of the critical skills gaps. ← That influences what colleges and universities look for in truly strong students.

Academic record in relation to requested major: Competitive colleges & universities have a recommended high school course target, a minimum high school course target to be considered for admission, and a list of readiness targets that they use to score ‘fit for purpose’ for either admission to the college, and/or to the major. For example, “math readiness” for an engineering applicant might have the minimum requirement of, “math sequence progression that includes algebra, geometry, algebra II/trigonometry, a fourth math class that requires algebra II/trig as a pre-requisite.” They have the high school transcripts, so they can see if you’ve met their objective minimum standards for a high school academic record.

Some Examples of Personal achievements that are objective:
*Presidential Service Awards
*Scripps National Spelling bee winner
*IB diploma
*National AP scholar
*National science bowl winner
*ISEF winner
etc
 There are documented standards, and internationally recognized award tiers. Either you do, or don’t make the cut for one (or more).

A few examples of objective talents & abilities

  • Demonstrated fluency in a coding language
  • Meeting or exceeding athletic recruiting thresholds (example: a 100m sprinter might be required to have some number of sub 10.5 (FAT) times at sanctioned meets)
  • Achievement of Professional certifications

Either you did, or did not achieve these benchmarks or results. That’s the very nature of objective.

@Boxcar101

Don’t make the mistake of confusing your personal value judgment of certain criteria with “lack of objectivity”. Colleges and universities don’t use the same notches that proud parents use in the parenting circles to brag about their kids, or that high school students use to measure themselves against peers. I think it’s hard for parents (especially) to wrap their minds around that, and even for some high achieving (in some category or combination of categories) students who don’t get that their crowning strengths aren’t the only, or the only ‘most important’, or the only valued benchmark achievements.

In the real world, in business & industry (both private & public sector), in schools, in sports, in research & development, in government and politics, and even in our homes, we need and value a wide range of strengths, abilities, talents, and accomplishments. Why would anyone think that collegiate academia would be any different?

@nomatter how much coffee have you had this morning longest post ever ?

Longest WAIT ever
 So, I had a whole bunch of time on my hands! LOL!!!

Readers of TexAgs would probably appreciate.

College Prep Services ~ Athlete ranking services (247/Rivals/TexAgs)(pick 3/4/5 star athletes based on statistics and the eyeball test)
College Confidential ~ TexAgs Posters
Admissions Reviewers ~ Coaches/Recruiters
William “Rick” Singer ~ Bagman Illegal Recruiter

Parents with money send their kids to football camps and 7 on 7. The less fortunate (I don’t mean for this to sound mean even though I see some might take it that way) are always looking for a ride (literally)
 camps are where the recruiting services see players and make their predictions on potential
 you have to be seen to be ranked.

Parents with money cast a wide net net and can apply to 5-10 schools
 more lines in the water are a good thing ~ football players court multiple schools and take the best offer. All 4 stars that want to go to TAMU can’t
 some go to Arkansas or tu :wink:

Parents think their kids are better than everybody else’s.

Campus visits ~ Official visits

College ~ College Football
Good colleges ~ NCAA Football
Elite colleges ~ SEC

Potential for 5 stars is close to a sure thing for college level football and likely NFL
Potential for 4 stars is high for college level football
Potential for 3 stars is traits that can be groomed to contribute

Some 5 stars play in the NFL
Some 4 stars play in the NFL
Some 3 stars go to the NFL
Some 2 stars go to the NFL
Some football players from Conference USA go to the NFL.

If you have an engineering degree from an accredited school then you are in the NFL.
Not everyone in the NFL can go to the Probowl.

People are going to see what they want to see and their expectations will be managed based on that
 My expectation whether my child can do it or not is that if they are not 10% 
 then they need top 15%, 1450 SAT and a well reviewed essay for Engineering (less computers) and Business
top 25%, 1450 SAT and a well reviewed essay for the rest
Everything else is a crap-shoot.

Don’t get emotionally attached to a school until you get there or at least know all of your available options (quantitative/qualitative)(easier said than done)
OOS schools are giving 3 stars mathletes opportunities.
Can we allow ourselves to attend a school without sports programs?

So keeping in with the spirit of the thread

Top X% Auto Admit until it reaches 60% of total admits (X will change based on data
 known two years in advance no more than 1% from current rate)
Top 25% with SAT score for another 20%
 when the score comes out it will be high
Rest are Review for 20%

Take this as just another random opinion as we continue to manage our expectations
 the more I read here the more I get managed.