@ucbalumnus UMich has a searchable database for transferrable credits. It is not that stingy if you are transferring from a CC on the list. It is not just UMich that do not accept certain dual enrollment credits. For instance, many college would not consider dual enrollment credits if the course took place in the high school. So some students would take the CLEP or AP exam as backup plans. The quality of CC just varies too much that one should not be surprised if certain credits are not accepted by certain school. It is a rather common situation not just for dual enrollment.
I didnât realize that HS kids would leave campus to take classes elsewhere for DE. Interesting; iâm guessing its a completely experience than taking the DE class in HS.
In our state, the DE classes are held in the high schools, and can be taken DE and/or AP. If chosen as DE, they cost 1/2 price tuition of the college offering the class. Our kids just took the AP tests and transferred the credits over to their different schools. Both schools differed on what AP credits they would take and what scores were needed. We saved thousands by doing the AP route and not DE. We know lots of kids who liked the DE route, and didnt worry about taking the AP tests and happily transferred DE credits over.
AP Chemistry covers all the topics of the full first year of college general chemistry.
AP Chemistry:
- Structure of Matter
- Bonding and Intermolecular Forces
- Chemical Reactions
Cal State Fullerton Chem 120A:
stoichiometry, acids, bases, redox reactions, gas laws, solid and liquid states, changes of state, modern atomic concepts, periodicity and chemical bonding
AP Chemistry:
- Kinetics
- Thermodynamics
- Chemical Equilibrium
Cal State Fullerton Chem 120B:
chemical thermodynamics, chemical equilibrium, elementary electrochemistry and chemical kinetics
@bgbg4us Our local high school has some DE classes being taught at the high school by our regional community college, which also has a satellite campus in town. I donât think highly of these classes, and neither do many universities, which wonât accept college credits earned in a class containing only high school students. Likewise, many community colleges are not regionally accredited, and as such their credits may not be accepted by out-of-state universities.
While I started this thread to sing the praises of dual enrollment, it is dual enrollment at a four-year college that I find most praiseworthy. This type of experience gives students a chance to understand what a true college class is like. A class full of high school students is just another high school class.
Michiganâs math courses are listed at http://lsa.umich.edu/math/undergraduates/course-resources/undergraduate-math-courses.html . The common calculus courses appear to be typical ones:
115: calculus 1
116: calculus 2
215: calculus 3 / multivariable calculus
Michiganâs transfer credit listings are at https://www.ugadmiss.umich.edu/TCE/Public/CT_TCESearch.aspx . Looking at transfer credit for calculus 1, 2, 3 indicates that Michigan frequently does not accept other schoolsâ courses as equivalent to its own courses. This includes both community colleges and four year schools. For example, among California schools (since you mentioned that your daughterâs friend who had to retake math she already took is from California):
De Anza College: Math 1A, 1B, 1C (quarter system) listed as generic math credit, not accepted for 115, 116.
Santa Monica College: Math 7 listed as generic math credit, not accepted for 115. Math 8 accepted for 116.
University of California - Berkeley: Math 1A accepted for 115; Math 1B listed as generic math credit, not accepted for 116.
Transfers from Michigan schools may not do much better:
Kalamazoo Valley Community College: Math 160, 162, 260 listed as generic math credit, not accepted for 115, 116, 215.
Lake Michigan College: Math 151, 201, 202 listed as generic math credit, not accepted for 115, 116, 215.
Southwestern Michigan College: Math 141, 142, 201 listed as generic math credit, not accepted for 115, 116, 215.
âIf it was a help then it was a help on gaming the system and not on internal growth. It is debatable if it was a real help in the long term.â - I would like to read an explanation how the discussion of difficult concepts is âgaming the systemâ. Then, my D. continued âgaming the systemâ while utilizing the profâs office hours and other help that was available at college. My guess, that would include using a pre-med advisory. I actually told her to never ever hesitate using any help if she felt that it is needed. It is my fault that she âgamed the systemâ. I worked for her though, so I have to assure that âit is NOT debatable if it was a real help in the long term.â, has worked very well all thru the first year of residency and continue working in the hardest yet, her second year. Strongly recommend using ANY help available at any institution and ignore others labeling this as âgaming the systemâ.
" A class full of high school students is just another high school class. " - Even if it was taught under the agreement with one of the best colleges in the state and by a teacher who used to be a college prof. and it is proven to be transferable / acceptable without any problem to ANY college? Interesting,âŠthe decision of the college to accept the credit as a transferred is completely undermined by the fact that class consisted of about 10 - 15 kids, all of whom were HS students. And why a student needs to care about the consensus of this thread, that has no bearing at all on anything in the kidâs life? Why one of the top colleges in the state continue supporting such collaboration if it only diminishing its reputation? None of it is making any sense.
In a previous post, I explained what I meant by gaming the system as quoted below. I donât find anything you described in #46 as gaming the system.
Beside, I donât place a moral judgement on gaming the system, and I often do it myself too. My only point was that there are prices for the bet and you should be ready to pay it.
By the way, I agree with your post #47 too.
âI didnât realize that HS kids would leave campus to take classes elsewhere for DE. Interesting; iâm guessing its a completely experience than taking the DE class in HS.â
LOL! I think thatâs exactly what a bunch of us were reacting to - the assumption that a dual-enrollment class meant that the kid had to schlep himself to some community college somewhere â and the reminder that yes, Virginia, not every family has an extra car hanging around for the convenience of their 16 yo!
On the other hand, if dual-enrollment simply means that some local university has certified the class for college credit (my high school did that with St. Louis University - it was called the 1-8-1-8 program and I think it still exists), then itâs kind of a no-brainer â why would anyone think itâs a big deal or have an objection.
"Beside, I donât place a moral judgement on gaming the system, and I often do it myself too. "
I suspect the word you are looking for is âworking the system,â not âgaming the system.â
Working the system implies that you look for loopholes you can use, but youâre not doing anything that isnât fully legitimate / legal or that wouldnât stand up to outside scrutiny. Something completely defendable.
Gaming the system has the implication of doing something unsavory, illegal, illegitimate, that youâre trying to âpull a fast oneâ and get away with something you really shouldnât, and that you donât want people looking too closely.
I feel confident you are ethical and that you might be working a system, but not gaming a system.
@MiamiDAP Obviously most of what we share on this forum is opinion. I say a DE enrollment class with nothing but high school students is just a high school class because in my view thatâs what it is. Do students in a self-contained DE class have to go out and figure out which scantrons to buy at the bookstore? Do they have to figure out which books to buy at the bookstore? Do they go through the process of swiping their ID each day as they enter the class? Do the get the opportunity to measure their ability against a classroom of typical college students? Do they see how college students dress and act in a college setting? Are they allowed to buy a soft drink and sit at their desk drinking it, or do they remain subject to the totalitarianism of the high school? Does the high school go out and get a stack of newspapers from the local college and place them outside the door so the students can pick one up and scan it for a few minutes before class starts? The bottom line is that high school is not college.
As a practical matter, most AP classes, if well taught, are more rigorous than introductory DE classes. But the classes my son has taken through DE, with a couple of exceptions, werenât available through AP or at his high school. As I mentioned earlier, he took an engineering course this past summer and hated it; he no longer wants to minor in engineering. On the other hand, he found that accounting just comes easy to him; he had a 98 average in a class where the average was something like 70. This fall heâs taking Intermediate Accounting I, which is a really tough course, but it gives him additional opportunity to make sure heâs picked the right major.
According to your definition, I guess the correct word seems to closer to working than gaming, but not completely.
Working in the legal industry, whatâs legal and illegal is often very blur to me, and can only be decided when it is looked closely by a judge. I would always have a good defense and am confident enough that I can stand up to any legal scrutiny. But at the same time I still wouldnât want people to look too closely.
In the previous example where taking a CC course to âwork the system,â I would be confident legally but not ethically, and I would be very afraid of future employers looking at it too closely. According to my personal sources, they often do look closely and sometimes discard a job application due to the uncertainty from it, especially when there are multiple suspicious CC courses replacing harshly graded gateway courses.
In my definition, being ethical is making choices that I want all other people to make. Alas, sometimes I make legal choices, that I donât want all others to make, and hope to be not too closely looked at. I am sorry for being unable to meet your confidence.
"Do students in a self-contained DE class have to go out and figure out which scantrons to buy at the bookstore? Do they have to figure out which books to buy at the bookstore? Do they go through the process of swiping their ID each day as they enter the class? Do the get the opportunity to measure their ability against a classroom of typical college students? Do they see how college students dress and act in a college setting? Are they allowed to buy a soft drink and sit at their desk drinking it, or do they remain subject to the totalitarianism of the high school? Does the high school go out and get a stack of newspapers from the local college and place them outside the door so the students can pick one up and scan it for a few minutes before class starts? "
Yes, but once more, you said that itâs an experience âeveryoneâ should have. I think you are naively forgetting that you are a) upper middle class and b) in a college town where itâs easy for your kid to access a college campus. This is simply not accessible to the average person who a) doesnât have a spare car for their 16 yo and b) may be miles and miles from any college campus.
I think you just extrapolated a little too much from your own surroundings, thatâs all. It would be kind of like saying âWell, just drive to Nordstrom to get thatâ and failing to realize thatâs not a solution for someone in the middle of a ranch in Montana.
The choice of courses can matter in terms of what âtypical college studentsâ a high school student taking college courses will encounter. For example, the college students in multivariable calculus may be rather different from those in calculus for business majors.
Gaming the system is skipping an AP class in favor for an easier dual enrollment class at a CC in a classroom of CC students, One semester of the CC class equals one year of the AP course with no AP exam.
The game is to boost HPA and class rank.
It must vary by school. I think our HS only has a few DE classes (Calculus), taught at the HS, and those are in no way an easier path than taking AP Calc BC. The kids in those classes will be some of the brightest youâre ever surrounded by.
âŠThere are lots of assumptions here that happen not to br applicable to ALL cases of DE. Everybody is talking using their own experiences and neglecting the fact that we have the unique ones. There are some top colleges that form collaborative agreements with some top (private?) HSs in certain states that allow some COLLEGE classes to be taught at such HS. These credits have the names of these respected colleges on them and why such a college would allow their reputation to be diminished if such a class is much easier than the AP version? This is just an assumption that is not proven by anything or anybody and simply is NOT true. These classes are much HARDER than AP classes, papers have to be written at the college level and they are evaluated by teachers who have been college profs. However, everybody is allowed to have their own opinion here, so if this is called âgaming the systemâ or âworking the systemâ or whatever, so be it! Nobody cares anyway and nobody will change their decision about taking the DE classes based on the opinions on this thread, including mine. Kids will do whatever they need to do! Why one has to focus on History at college if her entire focus is Biology and hard science classes? If such discrepancy in focus could be avoided, no doubt that any smart kid will take advantage of it!
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@Pizzagirl Iâve heard those folks in Montana will drive four hours at the drop of a hat! My original post said everyone should âtryâ to have a dual enrollment experience, and I stand by that. But I agree that itâs much easier for those living within driving distance of a university, and that itâs simply not possible for everyone, whether for logistical or financial reasons.
Many universities have a summer college program for rising seniors. The Ole Miss program costs roughly $2,000 for a one-month summer term and includes room and board. Weekend meals are an additional $250. Anyone with a 27 ACT gets half off, 30 gets 75 percent off, and 33 goes for free. Need-based aid is available. These programs are a great way for kids to get six or 12 college hours in a real college setting. So a dual enrollment opportunity is available for the better portion of college-bound students, should they choose to take advantage of it.
Changing the subject slightly, but my son was invited to take part in a Duke summer program based on his TIP score several years ago. It was expensive, but we felt it was worth it, and I would urge anyone who is able to take advantage of such an opportunity to do so. But the program was horribly expensive, and financially beyond the reach of most peoplle. I guess my point is, when I say that everyone should do something if they can, obviously if they donât have the money or arenât logistically able, then they canât, simple as that. Dual enrollment isnât an option for a lot of people, but it has been helpful for our family.
^ This. DE is very much a YMMV sort of thing. Depends on the state. Depends on the kid. Depends on the class. Depends on the specific CC or university, and depends on the HS.
Gaming or working the system for weighted GPA or class rank purposes can come with a cost. Consider the high school students who choose elective APs (e.g. environmental science, human geography, statistics) in place of non-AP (unweighted or less weighted) core academic courses like physics, foreign language level 3 or 4, or precalculus.