<p>“…it is a fact not every person’s objection is based merely on their interpretation of the economic and social impact of unchecked immigration.”</p>
<p>…And we’re not talking about “every person’s” (in the nation? in the world?) objection. We’re talking about known, articulated, published responses on <em>this</em> forum. I am not replying to other people’s unpublished or imagined opinions.</p>
<p>epip - cool your jets. I wasn’t even talking to you specifically. Just addressing a certain angle in the debate. Just trying to have ‘rational’ ‘unemotional’ discourse here…so we don’t lose yet ANOTHER thread.</p>
<p>I agree with epiphany. I, too, would rather pay higher prices for work done by “legal” workers with appropriate documentation. I believe my overall costs would actually decrease - because I am currently subsidizing the education, healthcare, etc. of these “non contributors”. </p>
<p>And, in my community the illegals are not paying taxes and social security. They are working on a “cash” basis - in construction, lawn service, restuarants, cleaning services, etc. </p>
<p>And as far as the comment: “And then there are places like my state, where unemployed white workers - thousands of them in eastern Washington, simply won’t do the work.”</p>
<p>That brings up another issue - why do we continue to support healthy, capable people who “choose” not to work at these jobs.</p>
<p>reflectivemom, many people SAY that. But few actually choose higher prices if they can avoid them. Which is why Safeway and Walmart are huge & thriving. And the more expensive farmers markets and specialty food stores remain boutiques for the few. Which is why Barnes & Noble/Amazon are thriving while the independent bookstores are biting the dust. Which is why shoes from China are outselling those from Italy. Etc, etc.</p>
<p>Americans want everything on the cheap…no way would anyone voluntarily pay more.</p>
<p>Illegals keep the costs down, and that is what people prefer. So, they look the other way regarding under-the-table payment of wages, etc. Cheap labor translates into lower costs, and in the end, that is more compelling.</p>
<p>Of course, this is a penny wise and pound foolish approach, since we are paying through our noses for education and health care, but people seem unable to connect those dots.</p>
<p>“So, they look the other way regarding under-the-table payment of wages, etc. Cheap labor translates into lower costs, and in the end, that is more compelling.”</p>
<p>Studied by the Department of Labor - more than 75% of employed undocumented immigrants pay into Social Security and Medicare (for services they will never receive) and have payroll deductions for state and local taxes where applicable. While the rate is lower than for documented people and citizens, it should be noted that the latter receive services for what they paid in, whereas the undocumented do not. </p>
<p>“That brings up another issue - why do we continue to support healthy, capable people who “choose” not to work at these jobs.”</p>
<p>Because there are people who do the job better.</p>
<p>I also suspect that, at the same levels of income, percentage of “under the table” payment of undocumented workers is likely not very much greater than for documented ones, the difference being that the documented ones will benefit from having paid into Social Security and Medicare, whereas payments from the undocumented will benefit me and my mother.</p>
<p>O.K., ldmom. Fair enough. Truce.</p>
<p>Allmusic, your assertion may be true on an overall calculation, but I assure you that many people ARE willing to pay higher, on principle. Fair Trade coffee (the example I gave) is normally higher-priced than what is mass-produced, but there’s a core group of globalists (loosely termed) quite committed to that concept, and to supporting any Third-World economic effort that promotes self-sufficiency, sustainability, etc.</p>
<p>Wal-Mart Nation suggests that the masses want cheap.</p>
<p>I buy fair frade too, as well as free range fish and organic produce and dairy products. Sure there are some of us willing to pay $3.99 for a half gallon of organic milk, or $1.99 for a half dozen organic eggs, but we are soooo in the minority.</p>
<p>The people who support, on principle, higher prices for organics, free trade, etc. aren’t the ones, usually, shopping at Wal-Mart for Chinese trinkets either. </p>
<p>A lot of people really are more dollar conscious than principle-conscious, and I don’t look down on them for those choices. I understand the need to get the most possible for ones dollar, which is why higher prices for all documented workers would never fly for many people.</p>
<p>“But few actually choose higher prices if they can avoid them. Which is why Safeway and Walmart are huge & thriving. And the more expensive farmers markets and specialty food stores remain boutiques for the few. Which is why Barnes & Noble/Amazon are thriving while the independent bookstores are biting the dust. Which is why shoes from China are outselling those from Italy. Etc, etc.”</p>
<p>I am one of those who do choose the independent bookstore, the organic foods, wild salmon versus farm-raised, etc. - in short quality over quality. </p>
<p>However my point is that there is not such thing as a “free lunch” - the cheaper wages paid to illegals and translated to lower costs also translate to increased cost for healthcare, taxes, etc.</p>
<p>Whenever I see both Republicans and Democrats backing a bill together
(McCain and Kennedy) Im sure there must be some BIG money involved and beleive me there is more BIG money behind this bill than you can imagine.
Business has been exporting manufacturing to the third world for years. Now they have an opportunity to legally IMPORT the third world to keep wages down in the service economy and in manufacturing jobs that they have not been effective in exporting(food processing et al) Legalizing the illegal is ALL
about keeping working class wages DOWN. Dont fall for it.</p>
<p>"But few actually choose higher prices if they can avoid them. Which is why Safeway and Walmart are huge & thriving. "</p>
<p>I don’t have the choice locally. Wal Mart is barred from NYC.</p>
<p>I so agree with post 71.</p>
<p>mini wrote: Because there are people who do the job better.</p>
<p>That’s only a “first stage” answer. If the only way one had of feeding themselves/their children was to WORK for it - and not rely on welfare/social programs - they would work and do their work well. We, as a nation, have allowed too many to “decide” it isn’t worth their time to work!</p>
<p>reflective mom and zoos,</p>
<p>"I am one of those who do choose the independent bookstore, the organic foods, wild salmon versus farm-raised, etc. - in short quality over quality. "</p>
<p>Good for you. Unfortunately you are outnumbered by tens of millions. That’s the reality of this country and taking that into account is the only way to come up with realistic policies regarding the people who supply the Walmarts and Safeways – and that includes illegal immigrants.</p>
<p>katliamom - but the reality is that all of us “legal” residents are subsidizing the cheap prices - and when the added subsidies are included in the “price”, illegal labor it’s not the bargain many think it is!</p>
<p>“We, as a nation, have allowed too many to “decide” it isn’t worth their time to work!”</p>
<p>Well, you can hardly blame that on either undocumented immigrants or on employers. </p>
<p>Anyhow, if there are folks interested in jobs paying about $20 an hour - for HARD WORK, there are employers out here begging for them. And I will personally guarantee they pay into Social Security and Medicare to support me and my mom in our old age, and into Workers Comp.</p>
<p>A point that has not been broached: I’d like to see statistics comparing the taxes that illegals are supposedly paying into the system compared to the benefits they are receiving (especially the HUGE chunks going out to education and health care). IF illegals are taking the lowest of the low paying jobs that “Americans won’t do,” then with the current tax system, they are paying in little or nothing. People who are working for below minimum wage simply do not make enough to tax under our system. “Paying in” does not imply paying in the equivalent or more of what you are taking OUT.</p>
<p>reflectivemom –
“illegal labor it’s not the bargain many think it is!”</p>
<p>That is definitely one way to look at it. But many economists see it differently. Sadly, there is no agreement in the economic community as to whether illegal immigration hurts us or not. For every study showing the losses you’ll find a study showin none or even a small net gain. Which is why this is such a difficult nut to crack. </p>
<p>This is also not a convincing or compelling argument to the millions of Americans who still prefer to shop at, say, Wal-Mart just because it’ll save them the immediate buck.</p>
<p>zoos,</p>
<p>“Wal Mart is barred from NYC.”</p>
<p>This is one of many, many, many reasons why I heart NY. :)</p>