The cult of Obama

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<p>Well, we’ve had plenty of change, and much of it for the worse.
We’ve gone from a balanced budget to a soaring deficit.
We’ve seen the system of checks and balances tilted in favor of an imperial executive.
We have an administration that has just agreed that waterboarding is illegal but refuses to commit to not using it again.
Our dollars are worth far less than in 2001, and we have to hope that the Chinese won’t decide to pull their money out.
Some things haven’t changed: Osama bin Laden is still alive…</p>

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<p>Then you weren’t listening to the debates. While it’s true that many of the topics effect us all, in one way or another, they do focus on these particular states and regions in which they hold these debates, and the problems/issues that most directly impact them.</p>

<p>In Nevada, on January 15, that debate spent some amount of time on Yucca Mountain-- where nuclear wastes are stored. While you can find the stance each candidate has on his/her own energy ideas and policies, I found nothing written about Yucca Mountain on any of the candidate websites. </p>

<p>In this debate, however, it was revealed that both Clinton and Edwards sponsored a bill that allowed for more funding for the continued and unsafe disposal of nuclear waste in this area. Clinton pointed out, in the debate, that Edwards voted twice to store the nuclear wastes in that area. This was after Edwards spoke eloquently about ending dependence on nuclear power. No doubt that was a fairly illuminating point for those in Nevada, and devastating for Edwards. The fact that Edwards had more comprehensive and detailed ideas about clean energy than either Obama or Clinton, didn’t make any difference to those in Nevada. Clinton pointed out his past votes on Yucca mountain- coming up only in this debate-- and that destroyed any chance he might have had for winning Nevada. </p>

<p>In Iowa, the candidates spent a great deal of time on the economy-- an issue central to us all, certainly, but they focused on problems very specific to Iowans. For example, Dodd pointed out that the cost of attending Univ of Iowa has risen 147 percent in the past 6 years. Obama spoke about the economy and energy issues, and used as an example a new wind turbine plant manufacturing plant in some town in Iowa-- so he mentions a plant that focuses on alternative energy AND the fact that this plant added 400 new jobs in the area (covering both energy and economy in one fell swoop-- central to that local area).</p>

<p>And who can forget the SC debate? While the topics discussed there also centered on those issues about which we all have an interest-- each candidate very much invoked MLK at every chance they were given, and really spoke to the black majority in the audience that night, as well as to the black majority in SC that were the Democratic voters. When they spoke of the economy, points were made that were very specific to those in SC. (Edwards pointed out the 6,000 jobs lost in SC-- in one month, for instance).</p>

<p>In addition, who can forget the Obama/Clinton childish bickering that night? You wouldn’t have seen that on their websites. And for my money, that sort of bickering told me a lot. John Edwards shone in that debate and, indeed, “represented the grown-up wing of the Democratic party.” As far as I’m concerned, the best man for the job is out of the race now. </p>

<p>Also, this is the same debate where I learned about Clinton’s involvement with Wal-Mart and Obama’s involvement with Rezco. I feel sure I wouldn’t have seen that on either of their websites.</p>

<p>Finally, these televised debates truly offer us a chance to see how these people speak, how articulate they are when their speech writers aren’t telling them what to say, how quickly they think on their feet, how they handle that sort of stress, and just a little about about their thought processes. For me, anyway, that’s of value. I won’t find that on their websites.</p>

<p>Both Clinton and Obama (and Edwards, before dropping out) have really impressed me at various times with how they view issues, and how each manages to deconstruct questions that are asked and really get to the heart (or not) of what’s being asked. Are they direct? Do they sidestep the issues? Do they blow smoke? Do they actually answer the questions; if so, do they answer them in the way that I (as a voter) hope they do? Again, I won’t get that insight from their websites, nor from channeling their speech writers at a rally.</p>

<p>So, I personally find the fascinating, extremely worthwhile, illuminating, and invaluable.</p>

<p>Janieblue:</p>

<p>Excuse me, I did listen to the debates. I concede about Yucca Mountain. I tend to think of nuclear issues as national issues.
Bickering may tell you something; it did to me. But not about plans and programs. We’re back to character.</p>

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<p>I like Edwards a lot, but c’mon, the bickering really started with a two-pronged “good cop, bad cop” or maybe just “bad cop, bad cop” hit on Obama by the Clintons. If Obama doesn’t respond, he starts to look weak or as if the criticisms are real – witness John Kerry not responding to the Swift Boat allegations. If others fight dirty, a candidate who wants to remain relevant to some extent must fight back.</p>

<p>The bottom line is Hillary wouldn’t win against McCain in the general election, whereas Obama has a good chance. If one cares about this, the rest is clear.</p>

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<p>marite: As I said before, each issue discussed impacts us all, absolutely; however, I was responding to your own earlier comment where you said you didn’t remember any debate touching on issues that were particularly important to one region.</p>

<p>The point is, when they touch on issues very specific to one area (though something that ultimately impacts all of us), that allows states to see that these candidates know what’s happening in their own regions-- and that the candidates care about them. That’s invaluable; don’t you understand that?</p>

<p>Also, as I stated before, I have never read about Yucca Mountain on any of their websites, though I have read their environment/energy policies. I would have never known (and I daresay most Nevadans would not have known) about how Clinton or Edwards voted on this issue had it not been for the debate.</p>

<p>Again, read my post. Those debates revealed information that is not revealed on anybody’s website-- whether it’s about issues or not. That may not be important to you, but it sure is to me. So I welcome the debates.</p>

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<p>Yes, in part, and I suspect for many of us, character is as valuable as their stance on the issues. It certainly is for me.</p>

<p>^ Me too. :o</p>

<p>zarathrustra: What Obama wants to change is the tone of politics in Washington. This is the biggest change he is promising to bring about, and I think it is the most important prerequisite for us to solve all our other problems. </p>

<p>Right now the debates in Washington are pointless. I recognize that there are “legitimate ideological and philosophical differences”. A vigorous debate is good if the two sides are listening to each other and willing to be convinced by the other side. But in today’s politics that is not happening. The ideologues keep promoting their strongly held beliefs on the left, right, top and bottom. When either side wins control in Washington, it just goes overboard. If Republicans get control we get extreme tax-cutting and war-mongering. If Democrats get control we get extreme tax-increasing and big government. If both sides are about equal we get gridlock and nothing gets done. But why not have two sides listen to each other, compromise, and find a solution that is perfect for none but acceptable to all? </p>

<p>Obama is right to focus on the nature of politics today and the need to change it. It is indeed one of the biggest problems in our country (and in many ways the rest of the world).</p>

<p>The reason Character is important is because our perception of a candidate’s character is what gives us an idea about how they might make decisions in the future. We want to see a candidate of integrity because that seems to indicate that he/she will choose “the right thing to do” when faced with a decision.</p>

<p>However, this perception of character has to be balanced against a candidate’s platform and/or political philosophy. If someone is a “Liberal” or “Conservative” then any decisions he/she makes are going to be influenced by that particular mindset. </p>

<p>That’s probably why I tend to have the perception that democrat (candidates) have less integrity because their decisions are not, in my mind. the right thing to do. Legislators or Executives (or even Judges) who choose bigger government, higher taxes, and a broad interpretation of the constitution seems corrupt because that, in effect, is giving themselves more power.</p>

<p>By the same token, I could say that I feel exactly the opposite about liberal VOTERS - they vote for democrats because they think that entitlements for the poor, letting women “choose” what they do with their own bodies, accepting alternate lifestyles, etc. is the “right thing to do”.</p>

<p>So It is IRONIC that Liberals/Democrats get into office because of the integrity and good intentions of their voters, but the decisions they make while in office reflect a certain amount of corruption and power mongering.</p>

<p>That’s why it’s preferable to vote for Conservative/Republican candidates because it’s better to err on the side of “smaller government”, “lower taxes” & “constructionalist” judges - which in fact LIMIT the amount of power going to the legislators, judges, & president.</p>

<p>I absolutely agree that character is important; and it is one reason I favor Obama. I’m responding to people who keep arguing that he has not talked about issues. And I’ve argued that the way to know where candidates stand on issues and what we should think about their stance is by reading their detailed proposals not the 90-second sound bites allowed in debates. Debates are great for people who are quick on their feet and have instant recall and can get their gotcha moments in. They also reveal a lot about character. But I like to ponder complicated issues at some leisure.</p>

<p>marite: Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, those debates are worthwhile-- not only in giving us a glimpse of how these people think, how articulate they are, and perhaps a little something about their character-- they also frequently illuminate how their stances on the issues (on websites and in debates) don’t often mesh with reality (ie, how they’ve voted in the past). Unless one does some amount of research, you will not find a lot of these disconnects on their individual websites. Debates are really useful in that way. Right there on the spot, an opposing candidate can and will point out the reality that may be different from what the candidate is up there spouting.</p>

<p>After learning about Rezco and Wal-Mart, I did a little more research on that myself. And I would have never known that the authorization that Clinton signed (when she said she didn’t know she was voting to start a war), was actually entitled "Authorization to Use Military Force . . . " Pointing that out in a debate caught her in a lie, and I wouldn’t have seen that on her website. Even if I had read about it, I would have been reading a statement that someone would have had the luxury of time to “spin” in a certain way for me.</p>

<p>I could go on with other examples, but those debates tell us a lot-- and not only about character-- that we would not discover on our own, unless we knew what to look for.</p>

<p>These debates are not Obama’s strong suit, so I understand why you don’t want anymore and want to downplay their value.</p>

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<p>bz2010: I was going to comment on your statement above, but I just don’t know what to say except WOW. Really-- just wow.</p>

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<p>Corruption and power-mongering is not the monopoly of any party. Power does corrupt. Are Democrats any more corrupt than Republicans? Duke Cunningham, anyone?</p>

<p>Nor, it seems, is big government a Democratic monopoly. After all, we have No Child Left Behind, which has resulted in a massive expansion of the Department of Education (remember when it was a Republican goal to get rid of it?) and the micro-managing of education (2 new Asian students who did not reach the ELA level expected and our school failed the AYP). We’ve also had a massive expansion of wiretapping and an attempt to figure out who reads what by demanding that librarians make available the materials requested by certain readers. </p>

<p>Of course, we’ve had less protection against food poisoning and dangerous toys. And a massive deficit.</p>

<p>marite, I agree totally with the point that a televised debate is not a good format to discuss policy in any significant way.</p>

<p>Janieblue:</p>

<p>I never said that I did not want more debates. I said I did not think Obama should give Clinton free publicity by agreeing to as many debates as she wished (5) I think 2 are fine.</p>

<p>I totally agree that character is important. I have said so repeatedly. Just as I have said that I do not think that Clinton and Obama differ all that much on the issues–which is why character is important. But people have not made this case. They have presented the debates as the main way to know where candidates stand on issues and have faulted Obama for not telling the public where he stands. As I’ve said before, I want to know what the mechanisms for implementing specific solutions are and what the implications and consequences of such solutions are before I decide whether I like one candidate’s solutions are better than another.</p>

<p>Getting back to character: The 3-way exchange between Edwards, Obama and Clinton disturbed me. Not because of the gender issue, 2 men against 1 woman; it disturbed me because it was 2 against 1; because Edwards chose to come over to Obama’s side (was he asked to? did he do so on his own on the spur of the moment?); because Edwards used his alloted time to go on and on about how he and Obama were on the side of change. Once would have been enough. I, too, would have liked to hear a bit more about what “change” consisted of in this particular instance, and how it differed from Clinton’s vision of change.</p>

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<p>Well, I think that’s a nice sound bite that Obama used (successfully, it would seem) to imply that she only wanted those for “free publicity,” because she was running out of money (which I, for one, don’t believe for a minute). But it was a way for him to turn this around, so that people wouldn’t focus on his refusals to do so.</p>

<p>And that 3-way exchange you mention-- yes, that was interesting, wasn’t it? We would have never seen that without benefit of a public debate. To my mind, that suggested there was either some amount of dealing going on behind the scenes, or it was just a manuever on Edwards’ part to secure some Clinton votes. Either way, it tells you something you would not have discovered anywhere else (except afterwards, in a spin room).</p>

<p>"I said I did not think Obama should give Clinton free publicity by agreeing to as many debates as she wished . . . "</p>

<p>could it be the fact that Obama knows that he has nothing of substance to say in an information exchange? He will be exposing his lack of experience, lack of knowledge of issues … His empty oratory preaching a message style is not suited for debates.</p>

<p>marite - I agree that NCLB was the antithesis of traditional conservative ideals. I do think policy has to include a certain amount of pragmatism - if our education system (for example) is in crisis, then sometimes the feds have to intervene (i.e. FEMA). Absent a major crisis however, let the states handle it. I thnk NCLB was implemented because our education system appeared to be in crisis. Now, it could certainly be debated as to what actually constitutes a “crisis”. Is our Health Care System in “Crisis”? Does it require Federal Intervention such as the dems are proposing?? Obviously that’s one topic where the rubber hits the road between Dems & Republicans. I favor a conservative approach to both education & health care - more privatization and more choice for the individual. Obviously, I’m not going to be voting for Obama or Hillary. I wouldn’t have supported NCLB in its present form either.</p>

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<p>simba - I think you’re onto something here! Hit the nail on the head I thnk!</p>

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<p>And you probably thought George W. Bush won the debates against John Kerry.</p>

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<p>I’ve acknowledged before that I thought HRC “won” the first debates and I still think she is the stronger debater in that particular format. She is very quick, very verbal and can spill out policy points faster than any politician I’ve seen on camera. She knows her stuff and is extremely intelligent and articulate. Obama is also intelligent and articulate, but his delivery is more thoughtful, deeper in a sense, and seems less rehearsed. Every time I see him answer questions on camera, whether in a debate format or one-on-one interview, I see a guy who is actually listening to the question, thinking about it and responding to it with measured, reflective answers. Compared to the rapid-fire responses and 5-part answers that Clinton gives, Obama can SEEM less knowledgeable or less decisive or less substantive. But I love the idea of a thoughtful executive who weighs problems and ponders solutions before acting or announcing a solution. I think that is a huge strength that he would bring to office and it differs sharply with what I see in Clinton or McCain. Obama seems more cerebral; Clinton seems more book smart. The televised debate format is suited more for her, which is why she’s demanding a lot more of them. The actual decision-making of a President, of course, will require equal parts contemplation and communication… and will not be televised. Obama narrowly loses debates to Clinton, but will be a more effective president in real life.</p>