The Frozen River - June CC Book Club Selection

[buenavista]

Thanks for posting the link to the Martha Ballard walking tour, @Mary13! Years ago I read the Ulrich book and was so fascinated by Martha’s story that we took a detour through Hallowell when driving home from Maine. I found a copy of that walking tour guide in a bookstore there and I still have it!

What struck me most was looking at the river and imagining Martha’s crossings, by boat but especially in winter over the ice. I’ll be interested in your impressions if you go, @CBBBlinker. Happy reunion!

[gardenstategal]

@buenavista , that book sounds so interesting. Years ago, when we couldn’t get a hotel for a parent’s weekend in Waterville, we stayed in Augusta and “discovered” Hallowell and its eateries. Like you, throughout the book, I was visualizing the crossings, the river, the woods. Harsh setting. And not tons of daylight hours in winter. These were hardy folks!

[Mary13]

@Caraid

I started listening to the book in the car with my husband on a recent trip. We didn’t get too far into the story before he noticed Martha’s negative comments about the different men being introduced. She didn’t really have too many nice things to say about men, especially at the start, before we met her husband. I’ll confess to not really getting the same negative impression as my husband, so I went back and reread the beginning. He was right, she didn’t have too many nice things to say about men.

It’s interesting to get your husband’s perspective because I didn’t come away with that impression. Of course, the criminals in the story–Joseph North, Joshua Burgess, Billy Crane–are horrific, evil men. But the other men in the community seemed pretty solid: Ephraim, of course; Cyrus; Samuel the store owner; Martha’s lawyer Seth Parker; and the girls’ suitors, Moises Pollard and Barnabas Lambard.

Maybe I was too quick to believe all Martha’s opinions, so didn’t pick up on the overall negativity. Martha can be a little judgey towards both women and men. She refuses to help Lidia North (think of what that poor woman’s life was probaby like) and she has all the bad thoughts about Henry Warren (the father of Sarah’s baby), who in the end turns out to be a very good man.

[Mary13]

There’s so much at this DoHistory site (although the interface feels weirdly outdated):

DoHistory Home

The more things change, the more they stay the same!

[Caraid]

My husband’s feeling about her attitude toward men was from early in the book. He did not continue the book, so I never got a second opinion. In the context of the story, Martha having negative feelings towards men is understandable. Between her rape and the role of women, it would be hard not to have some negative feelings.

[csfmap]

@Caraid

I started listening to the book in the car with my husband on a recent trip. We didn’t get too far into the story before he noticed Martha’s negative comments about the different men being introduced. She didn’t really have too many nice things to say about men, especially at the start, before we met her husband…

I read this book for an in-person book club and this is something that stood out to me. I’ve become increasingly sensitive to the negative portrayal of male characters in contemporary fiction, particularly in the genre of historical fiction. As a woman with only brothers and only sons, I find myself especially attuned to this and often rooting for fair, balanced representations of men. So many novels that portray a strong female character do so at the expense of men.

I’ve enjoyed reading all of the comments.

[Marilyn]

I still haven’t gotten the book but this discussion is making me wonder if I actually want to read it. It sounds quite interesting but also quite unpleasant in parts. I am not familiar with the area so that is not of personal interest.

[HImom]

To me, the book was definitely worth reading. I just got and will try to read “The Midwive’s Tale,” which is a more accurate recreation of Martha Ballard’s life, based on her journals. Also saw the documentary by same title.

[Mary13]

@gardenstategal

I too was intrigued by the number of women who were pregnant when they married. I always think of folks from that time as being quite “church-y” and thought that would have dissuaded premarital sex.

Apparently, things were a bit more free and easy in the late 1700’s:

Historian: Early Americans led lusty sex lives - UPI Archives

On a related note, I was curious about this passage in the book:

“I have been at this a long time,” I told my husband as we stood beside the wagon. I held our baby in the crook of my arm. “I am done.”

“With?”

Babies. Moving. Upheaval."

“I am happy to be done,” he said, and kissed my forehead. “Now that I have finally gotten one named after me.”

Since the novel indicates that Martha and Ephraim were definitely not done sleeping with each other, I wondered how the decision could be made (in 1789) to be done with babies. I found some info here: The Fertility Revolution - Commonplace - The Journal of early American Life

Klepp also examines the various technologies to limit or stop childbearing. Her evidence demonstrates that women used emmenagogues, or medicines for regulating the menstrual cycle, such as savin, juniper, rue, aloe, pennyroyal, and snakeroot, as abortifacients. Klepp also finds prescriptions for vigorous physical exercise like horseback riding or jumping rope. Late eighteenth-century medicine defined amenorrhea, or absent menstruation, as a symptom of illness as well as pregnancy, so there was no social condemnation of its treatment. And, though most of these methods seem to be dubious ways to end a pregnancy, Klepp notes some success. The records of the Philadelphia Dispensary show that 80 percent of the women treated for amenorrhea were “cured” using potions made with some of the above ingredients .

[HImom]

Well, Rebecca tried something herbal from the Indians in an attempt to abort the fetus from her rape.

[Mary13]

I just finished the interview that @jerseysouthmomchess posted. There’s lots of good stuff in there. It’s an hour, but you can put it on and multi-task.

Ariel Lawhon’s own mother had six babies at home with a midwife, so she found Martha Ballard’s career particularly relatable.

In contrast: My mother had her first child in the 1950’s when OB-gyns were mostly male, everything happened in the hospital, and laboring women were allowed very little input. She was given a drug to knock her out during the final stages of labor and delivery, so that part in the novel about Dr. Page and the laudanum really resonated with me! She woke up hours later – had to ask where the baby was and if she’d had a boy or a girl.

[HImom]

Yes, I believe back in the day, many women were given power pain killers which caused them to be unconscious during much of L&D. I am one of 7 kids and mom was shocked I didn’t want nor have any pain killers for L&D except when OB insisted to sew up tear after babies were born.

Mom had each of us in the same hospital I had my 2 babies. We both had male OB/GYNs. I’ve only had male OB/GYNs.

[jerseysouthmomchess]

I have been trying to remember thr initial chapters, when @Caraid’s husband didn’t like the depictions of men.

I do recall, Martha may have made some disparaging remarks about Sam, and her son Johnny which was an omen about what was to come.
And, she was particularly forceful dealing with men at the bar, and many were drunk, or squeamish, as she examined the mutilated body.

But, I just viewed Martha as a strong, feisty, woman in a man’s world, and as @mary13 mentions there were several positive male characters, as the book progressed. So I’m missing how Ariel Lawhon book is anti men.

[Caraid]

I don’t think the book as a whole was anti men, but Martha was strong in her opinion that women needed more rights and were capable of tasks beyond domestic chores. Her feelings and her past history caused her to question the typical gender roles of the times and she had some strong opinions. I think in the first few chapters as Lowhon was introducing us to Martha as a strong woman, she showed some less strong men. My husband only listened to the first few chapters, so I went back through and pulled some of the passages that I think may have annoyed him (my opinion).

---

Charles nods as though deciding on something important. “We will try harder again next time. I’ll make sure of it.” Foolish man.

And even then, it is God, not you, who chooses what you will have. Do you understand what I am saying?” “I’m not cruel,” he says. Just demanding and ungrateful. I do not say this aloud, however. He is the kind of man who will hear the truth, but only when it is spoken indirectly.

Having done his job for the evening, John Cowan has retreated into his loft at the other end of the forge. The young man is big, built like an ox, and not much smarter.

None of them think to greet me. One of them is already drunk. Chandler Robbins sways in his chair with the stupid look of a man who has gone hard and fast into his cups.

Good grief. I shake my head. Men and death: either culprits or cowards.

All the men getting squeamish and sick and leaving the room as she was tending to Joshua Burgess’ body was another example.

[csfmap]

I read The Frozen River back in October, so I’m weak on the details, but one impression has stuck with me is that the overall portrayal of men felt overwhelmingly negative. Throughout the book, male characters (except the husband) came across as either evil, foolish, or weak. It left me with the sense that the author leaned into writing the story with a negative view of men and it was persistent throughout the story. The examples above from Caraid are perfect.

The month before our Bookclub read The Island of Sea Women. I liked it better than Frozen River, but it also had a very negative depiction of males.

[Mary13]

In some novels, a negative portrayal of men may be the author’s bias. More often, I think it’s the result of the author’s disinterest in creating complex male characters. (I had an issue with this in Lessons in Chemistry.)

In The Frozen River, I don’t think it’s a flaw (the author has four sons after all); I think it’s just Martha’s personality. She has a tendency to rush to judgement with both men and women until a deeper interaction with them shows her something different from what she expected.

[VeryHappy]

This discussion of negative male characters has made me realize that almost all the fiction I read is by female authors.

[ignatius]

I’m not yet finished with the book. I picked it up from the library and started it on Sunday.

General thoughts so far:

Okay … this one is kind of nerdy but I really like the organization: the map … each chapter starting with the location … the date. I sense the passage of time.

I’m less on board about agreeing with the negative depiction of men because I like quite a few: Amos Pollard, his son Moses, Sam Coleman, Ephraim, Cyrus. That said, looking back, the first chapters mainly consist of Martha + men … and overall she shines and they don’t. Throw in meeting Dr. Page and I can understand Caraid’s husband thinking “enough of that.”

Critique: Martha shines as a 21st century woman in actions and thoughts. I’m also bumping heavily into the Not Like Other Girls trope (from AI):

The “Not Like Other Girls” (NLOG) trope in literature often depicts a female protagonist who considers herself different from her peers in ways that are seen as superior or more interesting. This can manifest as a rejection of traditionally feminine interests like makeup, fashion, and boys, in favor of intellectual pursuits, unconventional hobbies, or a focus on more serious issues. The trope can be used to highlight a character’s individuality, but it can also be seen as a way to create a character who is perceived as better or more complex than others.

Criticisms and Considerations:

• Potential for Condescension:

The NLOG trope can be criticized for making the heroine seem superior to other women who enjoy “girly” things or traditional female roles.

• Misogyny:

Some argue that it can be a form of misogyny, as it perpetuates the idea that a woman’s value is tied to her rejection of femininity.

• Overly Simplified Characters:

The trope can sometimes result in characters who are one-dimensional and lack depth, as their entire identity is defined by their rejection of “other girls”.

• Wish Fulfillment:

Some readers and critics argue that the NLOG trope often caters to a fantasy of being a woman who is independent and “not like the others,” which can sometimes lead to unrealistic expectations.

Positive Aspects:

• Highlighting Individuality:

The trope can be used to celebrate female characters who are unique and stand out from the crowd.

• Empowerment:

In some cases, it can portray a character who is empowered by her unique traits and choices.

• Breaking Stereotypes:

The NLOG trope can challenge traditional gender roles and explore different ways for women to define themselves.

Overall, the NLOG trope is a complex one that can be both empowering and problematic. Its effectiveness depends on how it is used and whether it contributes to a well-developed and nuanced character or falls into stereotypical tropes.

While the trope doesn’t fit Martha like a glove, it does fit (maybe more like a mitten LOL).

More thoughts to follow. (I like the book though I always get a bit twitchy when an actual person’s life is fictionalized to the extent she might not recognize herself.)

[csfmap]

@Mary13

More often, I think it’s the result of the author’s disinterest in creating complex male characters.

Good point. I think that is true of a lot of recent female authors.

Maybe the author simply didn’t want her readers to like the late 18th century male. Martha was the justice fighter and the men were the unjust.

@ignatius

I always get a bit twitchy when an actual person’s life is fictionalized to the extent she might not recognize herself.

Same here! I didn’t care for Martha as she was portrayed in the book, which made it even worse. It left me wondering—was this depiction fair or true to her real personality? Would I have liked the actual Martha?

As others have pointed out, she felt too modern for the time period. The author’s creative liberties with her story and her inner thoughts and attitudes does seem to lean into the NLOG trope (which I never heard of before). As written, she’s someone I could admire for her actions, but not someone I’d want to spend time with.

I’ve always struggled with using real people in historical fiction.

[gardenstategal]

I was thinking yesterday as I was listening to an NPR segment on racial inequities in medicine – and knowing a bit about gender inequities in medicine – that a good midwife really had more knowledge of what was involved in the care of women. That alone, with someone like Dr. Page in the picture, would have been infuriating and would have created a frequent rub-up against norms and expectations that made women "less"and perhaps left a permanent negative impression of most men.