The Fury of the Muslim World-Mohammed Cariacatures

oldspc · February 7, 2006, 10:37am

JamesN:

As an Oxford history graduate myself I am not very impressed by your historical method.

Have you examined all scholars? So you will be aware of the Sirat Rasul Allah by Muhammad Ibn Ishaq. Even though it wasn’t favoured by the compilers of the Hadith it is still important as the earliest suviving biography of Muhammad. In it there are stories of murders ordered by him on the slightest provocation. In one case he ordered the murder of Asma Bint Marwan because she wrote a poem criticising an earlier murder he had ordered.

This is a very bold absolute statement. How do you know all conversions were voluntary? You will no doubt be aware of the conditions imposed on non-muslims, or dhimmi, which institionalised their second class status including the payment of the jizyah or poll tax and a raft of other repressions. There were sufficient drivers to convert without them being forced.

The tolerance of mediaeval Islam is much overrated. There was tolerance as long as you accepted the second-class dhimmi status imposed upon you. If you went outside the bounds your life would be forfeit. Even in Muslim Spain, often seen as the apogee of Muslim tolerance, Christians were put to death for publicly stating those aspects of their faith that contradicted Islam, such as the divinity of Jesus.

The background was the impossibility of finding an illustrator in Denmark for a children’s book on Islam. Impossible because of fears of the reaction from the local Muslim community. So Jyllands-Posten commissioned the cartoons and published them alongside an article on the threat and dangers of self-censorship. One of the cartoons is of an artist drawing a picture of Muhammad, while looking terrified over his shoulder. Given the reaction and the demands that the cartoonists be killed it seems they have a strong point.

mommusic · February 7, 2006, 10:45am

First one to use ad hominem arguments loses the debate. They’ll teach you that in college.

And here’s an interesting editorial from Martin Walker–“What’s funny about Islam?”

<a href=“Walker's World: What's funny about Islam? - UPI.com”>Walker's World: What's funny about Islam? - UPI.com;

JamesN · February 7, 2006, 11:27am

I find it hard to believe that you are an Oxford grad. IF IT WAS TRUE that Muhammad called for the killing of Asma Bint Marwan (I doubt it), then that would be because she called for someone to kill Muhammad TO BEGIN WITH! Again, this would be an act of self defense. I do not trust any primary source regarding Islam other than the Quran and Hadith, even though I am aware of the story behind this event.

Okay, I admit I went to far by saying “all.” But the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of conversions were voluntary. The idea of unity and monotheism itself was an incentive to convert. Then there were Suffist movements, freedom from oppression by Christians and so on. There was no FORCED conversion in the Ummayid Caliphate, because the RULERS DID NOT WANT non-Arab to be Muslim.

I am at school now, so dont think I will get away having your arguments unanswered. You fail to look at both sides of a story. If you think that religious tolerance under the Muslims was overrated, then you are sadly mistaken.

everkingly · February 7, 2006, 4:19pm

Oldspc: I am deeply impressed by your expertise in Islamic history. I, myself, am only a high school senior preparing for college next year. Therefore, my historical knowledge of Islam pales in comparison to that of an Oxford history major.

Mommusic: The editorial you alluded to is extremely poignant and offers brilliant responses to JamesN’s loony comments.

JamesN: Again, your reply is loaded with overgeneralizations and complete fabrications. In addition, you are all too willing to discredit Asma Bint Marwan as a scheming woman (women had barely any rights in the Arab world and would never have been in the position to call for an assassination) who only cared to have Muhammed killed. Listen to yourself! What did she have to gain by calling for his murder? On the other hand, Muhammed had everything to gain to order the murders of dissenters.

It’s funny that you discredit all other primary sources that relate to Islam other than the Quran and the Hadith which are biased in nature because their authors essentially led the Islamic movement and gained economically, politically and militarily from the establishment of the Islamic Empire. Why are other first hand accounts about Islam not credible? Are the Quran and the Hadith invulnerable to intelligent historical analysis?

The European newspapers that published these articles obviously tried to point out how so many journalists and academics fear reprisals from the Islamic community when they offer intelligent criticisms of Islam and its followers.

nbachris2788 · February 7, 2006, 5:17pm

Mohammad is not regarded as a savior like Jesus; Mohammad was the final prophet and the speaker of truth, but wasn’t the son of God or anything. So you can’t compare Jesus and Mohammad.

Jesus may have been non-violent, but what about his daddy? Man, one wrong look and bam! you’re a pillar of salt. Or how about that wiping the whole world with the flood thing? A little ill-tempered, don’t you think? LOL, in some ways, God’s the world’s biggest terrorist if you believe the Bible literally.

everkingly · February 7, 2006, 6:54pm

Nbachris2788: I could not agree more that God is in fact the biggest killer of all. But we would not have life without death. So, it balances out. Also, we are not instructed to emulate God but to abide by his reasonable laws. We are told to emulate our Lord, Jesus Christ.

In Islam, Jesus Christ is not considered a savior but instead a prophet like Muhammed. So, it is perfectly fine to compare the two considering this entire thread focuses on the personal differences between Jesus Christ (the greatest supporter of nonviolence) and Muhammed (the exploiter of violence for personal gain) and the cultural differences between Christianity and Islam.

guguru · February 7, 2006, 7:47pm

“Let’s face it, Muslims secretly do desire the destruction and murder of non-Muslims and seek to overrun the world with Islamic regimes!”

yes everkingly, this is a great point you make. Over one billion of the world’s population meet on Friday’s to plot the destruction of the world and massacre all non-Muslims and rule the WORLD!!! I cannot possibly believe that everyone else has missed this fact. You are, truly, a genius. i, i , i must must humbly bow down to your amazing knowledge and intellect…

“God is in fact the biggest killer of all. But we would not have life without death. So, it balances out. Also, we are not instructed to emulate God but to abide by his reasonable laws. We are told to emulate our Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Muslims are told not to emulate the Prophet Muhammed, but to do what the Qu’ran says. The Qu’ran does not say go out and kill innocent people, extremists just distort what it says because they are mad at the west. Islam is just used like a scapegoat, if that’s the right word, it’s used as an excuse. Muslims believe that no human being can be like God and none should be considered God, which is why we do not idolize Muhammed nor are we supposed to follow everything he does. I think you guys should realize this before posting comments.

“It’s funny that you discredit all other primary sources that relate to Islam other than the Quran and the Hadith which are biased in nature because their authors essentially led the Islamic movement and gained economically, politically and militarily from the establishment of the Islamic Empire.”

O man everkingly you are a funny kid. The Qu’ran was written at the time when the prophet Muhammed began recieving messages. This is firsthand. The Hadith is not mandatory to follow. Some are distorted, and it is written upon things Muhammed might have said or done. But in fact, the Qu’ran is the main primary source.

“Why are other first hand accounts about Islam not credible?”

Why aren’t other first hand accounts credible? Because they may be fabricated over the years, etc etc.

oldspc, as a oxford graduate, i would expect you to have a more unbiased view of history.

“You will no doubt be aware of the conditions imposed on non-muslims, or dhimmi, which institionalised their second class status including the payment of the jizyah or poll tax and a raft of other repressions”

In Islam all Muslims have to pay a form of tax for the Islamic community. This is just tax that was used to help pay for building the infrastructure, health, the Islamic universities, etc. Since non-Muslims were not bound by religion to pay these taxes, they had to pay a separate tax which in truth was the same thing the Muslims paid. Wow, and whats funny is I haven’t graduated high school yet.

guguru · February 7, 2006, 8:02pm

"Abu Afak, was from Banu Amr Ibn Awf, and was an old man who had attained the age of one hundred and twenty years. He was a Jew, and used to instigate the people against the Apostle of Allah, and composed (satirical) verses [about Muhammad]. "
(The Book of Major Classes by Ibn Sa’d)

This is supposedly the murder to which Amsa Bint Marwan was offended by, and therefore assassinated. Now, we know that there are very few circumstances of people living to 120 years old, especially in that time period when people did not have the proper medical treatment to live that long. From this fact alone, one can assume that these stories are fabrications. And, if this story is held to be true, it says that he “used to instigate the people against the Apostle of Allah”, which means that he would try to create an uproar among the people of his town to rebel against the prophet Muhammed. Now, one must understand that Muslims do not consider Muhammed God, he is a man who was sent by God to spread God’s message. Therefore, his actions are not representative of what the Qu’ran says, and he has all the right to take strategic actions in a time when Muslims were already facing vast armies from all over Arabia.

In addition, Christians throughout the Middle Ages have not been apostles themselves. They had ransacked the Middle East on a crusade that was supposed to be Holy Way but had turned into a gold rush for knights to claim their own land. Along the way they killed not only innocent Muslims but innocent Jews. The Vatican itself has been accused of changing the wording of the Bible for political actions and ordering the massacre and torture of the Knights of the Templars. Even today we see in the news almost monthly of another priest charged of child molestation and pedophilia. How can one speak against Islam when Christianity seems to have its flaws?

hopeforfuture · February 7, 2006, 8:05pm

Nice say gugu.

In Islam Muslims want to help people in the world. They have 5 pillars of Islam that are required to complete before they die. One of them requires them to give one-fortieth of their income to the needy. And you call that violence?! They don’t want to destroy people’s lives; they want to help them.

You guys who make negative remarks are ignorant and prejudiced. You hold Islam as a scapegoat. It’s terrorists and the extremists who misinterpret the Quran and use the religion as an excuse in a wrong way. Don’t believe media. They make everything look bad. Be educated. Grow up.

nbachris2788 · February 7, 2006, 8:08pm

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; … Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
– Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5

guguru · February 7, 2006, 8:15pm

lol hopeforfuture its guguru, lol, gugu, np. But i do agree with you and NBAchris.

everkingly · February 7, 2006, 9:08pm

Nbachris2788: “If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; … Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
– Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5”

Why don’t you fill in the ellipses that you inserted? I’ll add them for you!

“and if, on being informed of it, you find by careful investigation that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in ISRAEL”

Kind of sounds like the evil, despicable terrorist attacks in Israel perpetrated by Muslims, the followers of a false prophet.
Jesus Christ warned that no other prophet would succeed him and all those that claimed to be prophets were false.

everkingly · February 7, 2006, 9:13pm

Hopeforfuture: “In Islam Muslims want to help people in the world. They have 5 pillars of Islam that are required to complete before they die. One of them requires them to give one-fortieth of their income to the needy. And you call that violence?! They don’t want to destroy people’s lives; they want to help them.”

Although I agree that there are a few Muslims that generally would like to help all people in the world, most Muslims only ever donate to Islamic charities that purely cater to the needs of poor Muslims. On the other hand, Christian charities pump millions of dollars in aid to humans around the world regardless of religion even when Christian missionaries, and Christian churches are banned in the ME. Most Muslims would rather support poor Muslims than poor non-Muslims. Note: I am extremely generous to Christian charities that supply direct aid to all humans.

hairypotty · February 7, 2006, 9:39pm

A few things to say:

<ol>
<li>Culture is not religion. So much of the oppression and misogyny (female illiteracy, “honor” killing, female genital mutilation, forced marriages, physical abuse, etc.) we hear about in Middle Eastern countries such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran stems from patriarchal cultural customs and baggage and not from Islam. </li>
</ol>

If any of these countries actually thoroughly implemented Islam as intended and honored the spirit as well as the letter of the “law,” the behavior of men and the actions of governments would have to change so radically that you would probably not recognize these countries at all. Islamic concepts and requirements are that different from how these countries currently operate.

2) Jihad does not mean “holy war.” This has to be one of the most damaging, most persistent myths about Islam. The Western media have helped perpetuate this, but there are plenty of benighted people like the terrorists who insist on misapprehending and incorrectly using this term. Jihad is correctly translated as “struggle” or “endeavour,” and can easily apply to such things as a student working to earn a medical degree or a group of people raising money to build a mosque. It can apply to the struggle to control one’s temper, or to learn to read and write. Part of my father’s jihad as a Muslim is the effort it takes for him to get up in time to offer the first prayers of the day, which occur before dawn. It encompasses the idea of struggling or fighting for good or against evil, but that does not necessarily mean with violence, and it certainly does not mean that any crackpot claiming to be Muslim and waving a Qur’an around can decide who is good and who is evil, and start killing people.

Some of the passages in the Qur’an describing battle and aggression (the passages militants often quote out of context to support their agendas) are narrating actual historical events, not advising them as a course of action or a religious duty. They are also offset by many other passages enjoining peace, mercy, goodness, tolerance, patience, forgiveness, compassion, etc. It seems the bin Ladens and “Muslim” militants of the world just haven’t gotten to those parts of the Qur’an yet.

<ol>
<li>Islam does not promote, sponsor, condone or encourage terrorism or murder. The smear campaign against Islam has been extremely thorough and successful, although Islam is peace.</li>
</ol>

everkingly · February 7, 2006, 9:44pm

guguru:

“In addition, Christians throughout the Middle Ages have not been apostles themselves. They had ransacked the Middle East on a crusade that was supposed to be Holy Way but had turned into a gold rush for knights to claim their own land. Along the way they killed not only innocent Muslims but innocent Jews.”

Again, we have never said that Christian history does not contain examples of violence (every religion does) The difference between Christian and Islamic history is that Jesus Christ and the apostles never once resorted to violence to preach Christianity. However, Muhammed and his earliest followers not only resorted to violence but enthusiastically supported the concept of conversion through military expansion.

“The Vatican itself has been accused of changing the wording of the Bible for political actions and ordering the massacre and torture of the Knights of the Templars.”

Where do you get your facts? I bet from The Da Vinci Code and other works of FICTION that are purely based on outlandish conspiracy theories. The Vatican nor any other reasonable Christian has ever said that the Vatican has manipulated the Bible’s sacred text for political purposes. Remember that the Vatican (papal authority) did not even come into being until about 600 years after the death of our Lord. If these conspiracy theories are true then the pope must have been extremely omnicient to have known the exact location of every Bible and ample resources and time to individually change (there was no printing press) each Bible so that its text would provide political and economic advantages to the pope. You people are hilarious! It was the French who tortured and murdered the Knights Templar (not the Knights of the Templars (get your history straight)) not the pope or his forces.

“Even today we see in the news almost monthly of another priest charged of child molestation and pedophilia. How can one speak against Islam when Christianity seems to have its flaws?”

Christianity does not advocate the molestation of boys and girls. Christianity has no flaws. Christians have flaws and the despicable actions of priests that shattered their Christian vows, when they molested innocent children, have never been justified by any Catholic. All bishops, cardinals, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have all apologized for these attrocities and have made wide-sweeping reforms within the Church to prevent these actions from occurring again. The priests that are guilty of sexual misconduct have been or are in the process of being defrocked (a very serious penalty in Catholicism). On the other hand, numerous MUSLIM clerics have justified the actions of terrorists and the violent protests that have turned deadly in the ME. In addition, you should not declare the actions of the Catholic Church as representative of the actions of all Christian churches. The Roman Catholic Church is but one in thousands of Christian churches.

everkingly · February 7, 2006, 9:57pm

Hairypotty: Religion is nothing except for interpretation. Interpretation is the key that makes a religion. Thus, if the grand majority of Muslims interpret “jihad” as meaning holy war then we must concede that in fact jihad means holy war. Now, I am not too certain that a grand majority of Muslims believe this notion. What I do know is that there are enough Muslims that do believe in jihad (holy war) against non-Muslims to justify the claim that Islam preaches violence.

If Muslim extremists are corrupting the meaning of Islam then it is up to the Muslim community to correct their misconceptions. It is not the responsibility of us non-Muslims to correct the violent nature of Islam.

In addition, I, like most non-Muslims, find it hard to believe that the Muslim extremists are able to corrupt the minds of millions of Muslims to believe that Islam advocates violence if there is not an essential factor in Islam that in fact does justify violence and murder

guguru · February 7, 2006, 10:02pm

“The difference between Christian and Islamic history is that Jesus Christ and the apostles never once resorted to violence to preach Christianity. However, Muhammed and his earliest followers not only resorted to violence but enthusiastically supported the concept of conversion through military expansion.”

The Muslims expanded by waging war with tribes who declared war agianst the Muslims. Unlike Christianity, Muslims believe the much more realistic concept of an eye for eye. Yes, there is a saying that if there was an eye for an eye the whole world would be blind, but then if someones eye was taken out and they offered the other it would: a) hurt like a mother and b)well,they would be blind and thier opponent would have 20/20 vision.

“Where do you get your facts? I bet from The Da Vinci Code and other works of FICTION that are purely based on outlandish conspiracy theories.”

Yes, they are conspiracy theories, but all theories have a start. There must have been some notion of what was said, and even though it is a fictional novel the facts are still facts.

“The Vatican nor any other reasonable Christian has ever said that the Vatican has manipulated the Bible’s sacred text for political purposes.”

Dude…seriously…come on. Why would the Vatican publicly declare now that it has manipulated the bible for their political purpose. Are you this naive?? But it has been noted by many historians throughout the past, and if you try to look for some I am sure you will find many examples of this.

“If these conspiracy theories are true then the pope must have been extremely omnicient to have known the exact location of every Bible and ample resources and time to individually change (there was no printing press) each Bible so that its text would provide political and economic advantages to the pope.”

My bad if you misunderstood. They did not change every singe bible, but they did manipulate some to prove thier points.

“Christianity has no flaws. Christians have flaws…On the other hand, numerous MUSLIM clerics have justified the actions of terrorists and the violent protests that have turned deadly in the ME.”

I’m not too sure if you have realized but Muslims, like christians, have flaws too. In this case many Muslim preachers are preaching violence against the west, and Christian preachers have been molesting little boys and girls who went to church to learn about being good, MORAL, human beings and not taking ADVANTAGE of others.

So I guess then this argument is settled. Through useless debate we have come to the conclusion that both religions have flawed followers, and now we are right back to where we started.

guguru · February 7, 2006, 10:05pm

“What I do know is that there are enough Muslims that do believe in jihad (holy war) against non-Muslims to justify the claim that Islam preaches violence.”

First of all, there is a very small minority of Muslims who believe that Jihad is only Holy War. The reason that you do not hear about what the rest of the Muslims think is because the media would never air it. Why? Because it is more exciting for people to ramble about violence and war than peace. The media is a business, and if people want to here about maniacs that make up a small percentage about a religion, then the media will show this in gigantic proportion.

everkingly · February 7, 2006, 10:21pm

Guguru:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Are you actually serious? Let me ask you a serious question: are you a conspiracy buff? Do you actually believe that the Vatican altered the Bible (name one credible historian that says that the Bible’s contents are fabricated), Jews have corrupted the media in order to make Muslims look bad (I think Muslims are too good at doing that themselves, they need no help from the media) and little green men visited Roswell?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

hairypotty · February 7, 2006, 10:27pm

I’m hurt that you think of Muslims in this way. Have you met any Muslims? I bet you don’t. I’m Muslim, and those things you talk about don’t apply to me, my family, my friends, or my community at all. A MUSLIM teacher at UVA felt ashamed and embarassed of terrorist attacks. I think your view on Islam is based on the political conflicts held in Middle Eastern countries, not Islam itself. I also believe that you make your biased decisions based on stupid media that is obsessed with violence. I’m just disgusted at how small-minded people can be.

The Fury of the Muslim World-Mohammed Cariacatures

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