The government bailouts have started as the markets freeze up

Parent Cafe
81

<p>Estimated tax for family of 4, std deductions.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.fincalc.com/inc_02_o.asp[/url]”>http://www.fincalc.com/inc_02_o.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Based upon the information you provided, it appears that your 2007 estimated federal income tax liability will be approximately $2,093. Your average tax rate is 4.2% and your marginal tax rate is 15.0%.</p>

<p>Estimated Tax Analysis<br>
Gross income
$50,000</p>

<ul>
<li>Qualified plan contributions
$0</li>
</ul>

<p>= Adjusted gross income
$50,000 </p>

<ul>
<li><p>Standard/Itemized deductions
$10,700 </p></li>
<li><p>Personal exemptions
$6,800 </p></li>
</ul>

<p>= Taxable income
$32,500 </p>

<p>Tax liability before credits
$4,093 </p>

<ul>
<li>Child tax credits
$2,000 </li>
</ul>

<p>= Estimated tax liability
$2,093</p>

<p>So a little over $2,000 and if you do some IRA and or 401k saving it can be cut substantially.</p>

<p>Now for a family with $200K income
Based upon the information you provided, it appears that your 2007 estimated federal income tax liability will be approximately $40,093. Your average tax rate is 20.0% and your marginal tax rate is 28.0%.</p>

<p>Estimated Tax Analysis<br>
Gross income
$200,000</p>

<ul>
<li>Qualified plan contributions
$0</li>
</ul>

<p>= Adjusted gross income
$200,000 </p>

<ul>
<li><p>Standard/Itemized deductions
$10,700 </p></li>
<li><p>Personal exemptions
$6,800 </p></li>
</ul>

<p>= Taxable income
$182,500 </p>

<p>Tax liability before credits
$40,093 </p>

<ul>
<li>Child tax credits
$0 </li>
</ul>

<p>= Estimated tax liability
$40,093 </p>

<p>$40 frikking grand in tax. Seems like quite enough to me.</p>

82

<p>Mini, the episode explains how the left lost and we have the economy have now. The episode explains why people that were socially liberal were attracted to Reagan.</p>

<p>“There is no society”. </p>

<p>The episode fits well with what you wrote in post #76.</p>

<p>u…dad, There are plenty of people that make more than me that are paying fewer taxes than I am.
I’m not sure why people should be thankful others pay more taxes. Government isn’t free. It costs money to run the government. Everybody benefits. When Goldman Sachs calls the Fed and says, “You better lower interest rates”, partners in Goldman benefit in ways that most people can never imagine.
I can’t call the Fed and have them listen to me. I don’t know. I think Goldman benefits more from the government than I do. They should pay more in taxes.
If the Fed starts taking my calls, I might change my mind. ;)</p>

83

<p>Barrons, go complain to U…dad. He thinks the guy who makes $200,000 should be taxed at a lower rate than the guy who makes $50,000.</p>

84

<p>Barrons, I know you know better than that. You know income tax is far from the only tax in America. And you also know that damn few $200K+ income earners are going to be taking a standard deduction. Add in FICA tax, sales tax, property tax (either direct or collected through home rent) gas tax, “fees” and assessments for government services like tolls, park user fees, trash collection fees, parking meters, etc, etc, etc. - and then put the $200K earner’s actual deductions in - the mortgage deduction (the renter doesn’t get that), the business owners entertainment and food expese deductions, non-commuting travel expenses, etc. etc. etc. and you’re back in the real world - where low income people pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than higher income people.</p>

85

<p>For a person who claims to be a pacifist and a believer in non-violence mini doesn’t seem to have a lot of scruples about usinging the full power of the state - prisons, police, courts, snitches, truncheons, fire hoses, chemicals, guns or anything else it takes to appropriate somebody else’s property :-)</p>

<p>The wealthy provide the vast majority of the dollars needed to run our government and the lower classes have the vast majority of the say (votes) that determine how that money will be spent. When it dawns on people that 51% of the people can expropriate the wealth of the other 49% democracy usually collapses - see some of mini’s favorite countries (Cuba, Venezualea, Zimbabwe) for the various stages of decay that inevitably sets in.</p>

<p>If greed is the sin of the wealthy then envy is too often the sin for the rest of us. I kind of refuse to believe the government has too little money as long as it spends so much of it so poorly.</p>

86

<p>barrons:
That’s what I’m talking about. Even if one throws in other deductions, the $200K obligation is generally substantially higher than the $50K.</p>

<p>mini:

Good - at least you’re grateful. That’s more than a lot of people.</p>

<p>dstark:
I threw in the term ‘generally’ because there are always exceptions and I’m all for loopholes being closed so we at least can see what the true playing field is. I know plenty of people earning >$200K paying huge amounts in taxes.</p>

87

<h1>81. Your $200,000 income example is not a plausible example. If you took this example to your boss, I wonder how what he’d say.</h1>

<p>The irritation that I have with a few of my “Republican” friends will bring up this type of pseudo proof to verify their position. My fiscally conservative friends both, “Republican” and “Democratic” would say to the $200,000 income family, 1. You need another accountant!!; 2. Did you forget to subtract from income the 401k, 529, mortgage interest, investment expenses, business expenses? 3. Are you adding in depreciation, rents, capital gains? 4. I can lend several good money books : “Rich Dad, Poor Dad,” “Richest Man in Bablylon”, “Millionaire Next Door,” 5. No wonder the Republican Party is such a mess. ( I am still registered Republican -Goldwater type. )</p>

88

<p>Higherlead, are you unaware of the fact that over the past 30 years a greater and greater portion of the nations wealth has been shifted - not from the rich to the poor, but from the poor and middle class to the wealthy? That the gap between the wealthy and the rest of society has widened, and is greater than any time in the past 100 years? As Warren Buffet said:

<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html?ex=1322197200&en=0cf857b8cb918674&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html?ex=1322197200&en=0cf857b8cb918674&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&lt;/a&gt;
Any claim to the contrary is propaganda, pure and simple.</p>

89

<p>I considered that the war has been already won. I am also well aware of the French Revolution.</p>

90

<p>…and one more example from today’s paper:

<a href=“http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/23/MND5RNBH3.DTL&hw=income&sn=001&sc=1000[/url]”>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/23/MND5RNBH3.DTL&hw=income&sn=001&sc=1000&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

91

<p>“For a person who claims to be a pacifist and a believer in non-violence mini doesn’t seem to have a lot of scruples about usinging the full power of the state - prisons, police, courts, snitches, truncheons, fire hoses, chemicals, guns or anything else it takes to appropriate somebody else’s property :-)”</p>

<p>Last time I looked, the corporate socialists had a monopoly on the full power of the state, and have found reasonably effective ways to appropriate most everything in sight. But I am thankful that they’ve left me my hovel, and I just had a good dinner. (turkey meatloaf - cheap, and low cholesterol, too!)</p>

<p>I would be happy to share. ;)</p>

92

<p>K–every state is different in taxation so it is impossible to compare. We were talking Federal Income Tax Policy so try to stay focused. As I said, if you don’t like your state and local taxes take it up with the proper officials.</p>

<p>The example was kept simple because lots of people with 200K income do not have depreciation (rental property deducts phase out sharply with over $110K income). Yes they may put money into 401K–probably do–but the $50K example also can do an IRA which goes away at $200K. So consider the example incomes to be after deducts for 401K, IRA etc. You never know what tax you might eventually pay on that anyway–it’s not tax free, just deferred. With inflation in SS payments over 20 years and a decent income from retirement funds etc you could easily end up in a pretty high tax bracket in retirement.</p>

93

<p>^ And you are correct. In Oregon we have a flat 9% income tax. (Washington has a far less income tax. ) So what I am I trying to do is to minimize my wage income which is federally taxed marginally and maximize my investment income which is federally tax free. I am also trying to minimize what I put into 401k and as my wage income decrease, I maximize my Roth to get a tax free status on withdrawal. </p>

<p>My spouse and I are at the age where tax deferred growth is less important than maximizing overall gains. </p>

<p>Disclaimer: consult your professional. Each situation is individual and may not apply to you.</p>

94

<p>Kluge is right in posts #84 and posts #88.
Those are facts. They aren’t opinions.
“low income people pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than higher income people.”</p>

<p>“over the past 30 years a greater and greater portion of the nations wealth has been shifted - not from the rich to the poor, but from the poor and middle class to the wealthy. That the gap between the wealthy and the rest of society has widened, and is greater than any time in the past 100 years”</p>

95

<p>Another fact - not an opinion:
Higher income people pay more taxes than low income people.</p>

<p>Regarding a wealth shift - There are a lot of variables that go into the equation of why this might be. Regardless, what does this have to do with increasing taxes on the higher income people? Is it to somehow redistribute the wealth - i.e. take from the rich and give to the poor? Simply increasing taxes on the higher income earners doesn’t necessarily result in more wealth for the low income earners.</p>

96

<p>“I kind of refuse to believe the government has too little money as long as it spends so much of it so poorly.”</p>

<p>Everybody spends money poorly. Corporations too. Microsoft, IBM, Cisco, GE, Boston Scientific, savings and loans and banks, hospitals, my aunts and uncles…</p>

<p>These great companies like Countrywide Credit make mistakes too. How much has the CEO sold in stock this year? $400 million? And that company has worse credit than all of us. ;)</p>

<p>Our deficit this year is what, somewhere around $200 billion? All things considered, that’s a lot better than the subprime mess and the $300 BILLION the commercial banks now have tied up in private equity deals.</p>

<p>At least people still want to buy treasuries.
Commercial paper…that’s another story.</p>

<p><a href=“Bloomberg Politics - Bloomberg”>Bloomberg Politics - Bloomberg;

<p>Aug. 23 (Bloomberg) – Outstanding U.S. commercial paper fell 4.2 percent, the biggest weekly drop in at least seven years, as investors fled asset-backed debt and opted for the safety of Treasuries. </p>

<p>Short-term debt maturing in 270 days or less fell $90.2 billion to a seasonally adjusted $2.04 trillion in the week ended yesterday, according to the Federal Reserve. Commercial paper outstanding has fallen by $181.3 billion in two weeks. </p>

<p>The retreat may indicate that the Fed’s decision to lower the discount rate last week failed to instill enough calm to draw back investors. Commercial paper backed by assets led the fall as buyers fled debt linked to subprime mortgages. Outstanding paper may slump by a total $300 billion, representing the entire amount of such debt backed by home loans, said Tony Crescenzi, chief bond market strategist at Miller Tabak & Co. </p>

<p>``The commercial paper market, in terms of the asset-backed commercial paper market, is basically history,‘’ Bill Gross, manager of the world’s biggest bond fund at Newport Beach, California-based Pacific Investment Management Co., said in an interview today. </p>

<p>The decline in outstanding commercial paper was driven by a 6.8 percent fall in asset-backed commercial paper, which represents about half the commercial paper market and has been used to finance purchases of subprime mortgages.</p>

97

<p>Another reason I don’t want to bailout the subprime mess. Many foreign countries own the paper. Why should American taxpayers bailout foreign companies?</p>

<p><a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?;

98

<p>Well my really fair and really redistributive tax is to figure out what the government really needs to operate every year and throw everybodies name in to a hat. Then you pull the names out one at a time and take evrything, salary, savings, pensions, stock options, clothes, vehicles, and houses etc. Tough luck if it is community property you married for better or worse. You do this until the budget is balanced and nobody else has to pay anything. Next year you repeat the process. You get to keep your underware.</p>

<p>This tax plan is fair because it puts everyone at equal risk of paying and the rate is flat. It doesn’t favour wealth over income and it balances the budget.</p>

<p>mini - thanks for the dinner offer but you cannot maintain a figure like mine on a low cholesterol diet. The strokes haven’t killed me yet. I stick with pork rinds with a grain alcohol and rainwater highball whenever possible:-) </p>

<p>OK it was really tacos and seltzer water with Good & Plenties for dessert. Love that black licorice.</p>

99

<p>“Everybody spends money poorly. Corporations too. Microsoft, IBM, Cisco, GE, Boston Scientific, savings and loans and banks, hospitals, my aunts and uncles…”</p>

<p>That is true but when companies make bad decisions it costs their investors and if the make really bad decisions they go out of business. When the government makes bad decisions it just sends its goon squads out to take more money from its citizens.</p>

100

<p>“That is true but when companies make bad decisions it costs their investors and if the make really bad decisions they go out of business. When the government makes bad decisions it just sends its goon squads out to take more money from its citizens.”</p>

<p>Sometimes, when companies make bad decisions, they have their government friends send out the goon squads to take money from its citizens.</p>