I get that many come here out of desperation. The learned and highly successful foreigners(in their own land) are not generally the ones that come here illegally. Isn’t that kind of a “given?” Just wanting a better life here is not reason enough to be permitted to stay here, under current law.
Yes, courts are often permitted some discretion on sentencing after a guilty verdict. That discretion as I understand it is written in under the law.
For anyone that thinks deportation is too harsh for someone found here illegally, then I suggest they seek a change in the law.
If an immigrant is here illegally and is attending school, or is driving on our public highways, or collecting any form of welfare, isn’t he stealing from everybody by using a public service he isn’t entitled to by law? Do some think that doesn’t count because it’s not stealing that causes direct, significant harm?
Perhaps I am expressing a view of the greater principle whereas apprenticeprof is seeing a smaller, more personal picture. When I say I don’t like the “he’s otherwise law abiding” excuse for the federal crime of illegal immigration, I think the same excuse is weak for ANY federal crime. In principle, stealing an apple is the same as stealing from someone’s IRA. but the penalties can differ, and rightfully so.
There are people in awful conditions all over the world that seek to come to the US . But unfortunately for them, they are separated from the US by an ocean rather than a river. So they have to wait patiently for years in order to come here legally. Why should we give preference to those who were more lucky simply in terms of geography?
The US has one of the highest rates of illegal immigration in the world. Part of the reason is because it is such a desirable place to live. The other part of the reason is that unlike most countries, the US does not enforce its immigration laws. Here are examples of how other countries treat illegal immigration:
Israel: Illegal immigrants can be jailed for up to 3 years
Mexico: Illegal entry is a felony punishable by two years imprisonment.
Singapore: Up to 6 months jail and 12 strokes of a cane
UK: 6 months jail if working, and firms hiring them can be closed
As far as the sob stories go about breaking up families, that is completely the fault of the parents that came to live here illegally. If breaking up the family is too hard, the entire family is welcome to go back as far as I am concerned.
On the other hand, I welcome guest worker visas that can eventually lead to a path to citizenship. Perhaps 5 years as a guest worker where the family stays in their home country, 5 more years to green card with family, and 5 more to citizenship. The important thing is that they are here legally and follow the laws. The guest worker program with a path to citizenship will also ensure that employers are compliant with the laws and not abusing their now legal employees.
Listened to a program on NPR thus afternoon about dairy farmers in Wisconsin losing all their workers. Some they interviewed (who voted for the person touting deportation etc,.) we’re saying they didn’t know it wouid go this far and that they can’t find American workers to fill the jobs. The pay is $11/hr and they can’t pay more and make a profit. Oh well, they made their bed.
I am in favor of stepping up border control and vetting for incoming visitors to reduce the number of illegal immigrants who can get into this country. I am also in favor, in most cases, of deporting immigrants who come here and commit (most) crimes, regardless of how long they’ve been here and what ties they’ve made. But while it may not be fair that a person from Syria can’t make it here and a person from central America can, the question facing us is what to do with the people who are already here.
How exactly is it good for our country to deport a woman married to a citizen with two citizen children who has been in this country for fifteen years? She isn’t eligible for most benefits anyway. As for use of roads and other public facilities, she may, like many illegal immigrants, been paying at least some of the taxes that support those services. If we deport her, the chance that her children will wind up needing some of the welfare benefits that they ARE eligible for increases dramatically. So it isn’t to save money on her presence in the US. Is it that we think letting her stay – as we simultaneously step up border enforcement, vigilantly pursue criminal aliens, and make it more difficult for employers to hire undocumented workers – is going to encourage a slew of others to come, in the hope that they, too, will manage to make it to the US, find a job, get married to an American, have children, spend time in detention after being discovered years down the road, and win permission to stay after a lengthy legal process? If not deterrence, are we then so determined to punish this woman that we think justice really demands a deportation that is not only cruel but counterproductive?
But they can’t hire the illegal immigrants legally. They can apply to hire farm workers or other documented workers, temporary labor, children (hey, I was one of those Wisconsin farm workers at age 13)., but not employer can hire an undocumented worker without breaking the law themselves.
I admit I haven’t read every page, but I haven’t noticed anyone complaining about legal immigrants.
I see the point about “tearing apart families”(post 221) for those that choose to take the chance to live here illegally. I guess a person could liken it to a jewel thief, that once convicted is sent to prison. Do we blame the cop? The judge? Or was it the criminal that chose to commit the crime that caused the breakup of the family?
Others don’t have a right to come here to live; even if they’re poor, even if they’re disadvantaged. Our Constitution is not binding for people in France, Germany, Mexico, San Salvador to name a few examples. But I was surprised to see some other countries’ illegal immigrant penalties in post 221. One might have thought we were the harshest country around, but I guess not.
“They can apply to hire farm workers or other documented workers, temporary labor, children (hey, I was one of those Wisconsin farm workers at age 13)., but not employer can hire an undocumented worker without breaking the law themselves.”
If wishes were horses.
The dairy farmers hire the illegal immigrants even though it is illegal for them to do so because those are the only people they can get to work for them. The workers were also interviewed for this story (those still there) and others who left and are now in Canada.
They also interviewed a Wisconsin conservative talk radio show host who did a show on the issue and he said his phone lines were flooded with dairy farmers calling in about not being able to find workers and how they are just beside themselves how the deportations and just the threat of deportation is destroying their dairy farms. The radio host was just as surprised at the number of farmers affected.
It’s like no one understood the ramifications and that it wouid harm their own livelihoods. I’d feel sorry for them if they hadn’t done it to themselves - but they’ll get no sympathy from me.
“It’s like no one understood the ramifications and that it would harm their own livelihoods.”
Plenty of conservative, GOP reps seem to understand it and the impact it would have in their own jurisdictions and that is why they won’t support it. A few have voiced their opposition already.
Actually, they can and do. Many smaller farms can’t/don’t use e-verify so they can accept whatever documentation looks reasonable.
Based on several estimates, ~50% of dairy workers are illegal and that is true in many states, not only WI.
I did a little googling on this issue, and it appears that dairy farms have a special problem in that they need workers year-round. Thus, the workers are not eligible for seasonal visas, as are other farm workers who come in to harvest for a short season.
“Plenty of conservative, GOP reps seem to understand it and the impact it would have in their own jurisdictions and that is why they won’t support it. A few have voiced their opposition already.”
Yes, some Reps do but their voters, no so much. Otherwise this wouid not be coming as a shock to them. The ones interviewed even admitted it. Every sentence started with, “I didn’t think…”
Some may be in support of the proposed RAISE act, which would significantly reduce legal immigration if it passes.
The noisiest critics of illegal immigrants do not seem to be in favor of increased and simplified legal immigration that would substantially reduce the incentives for illegal immigration. Most seem to be in favor of reducing legal immigration as well.
“fwiw: farmworkers in Napa are pulling down $40k. But I guess that is easier to absorb when one is producing $300 bottles of wine.”
Yet from the article you posted:
“But the raises and new perks have not tempted native-born Americans to leave their day jobs for the fields. Nine in 10 agriculture workers in California are still foreign born, and more than half are undocumented, according to a federal survey.”
People need to stop pretending native born Americans are going to take these jobs.
If legal residents won’t take the jobs, then the salaries have to increase, the employers have to innovate, or some legal status has to be granted to workers who do those jobs. Illegal immigration is simply not acceptable.
Just because something is difficult doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. If both sides would stop confusing things with the endless straw men, maybe a responsible fix could be found and implemented.
@zoosermom, the salaries can’t increase because the farmers don’t make enough profit to increase what they pay. Profit margins for farmers are minuscule and people will not pay $10 for a head of lettuce.
All this will succeed in doing is putting farmers (and other businesses that rely on immigrant workers) out of business in the US and increasing the reliance for imported goods.
Mechanized equipment is extremely expensive and one bad year due to drought or too much rain, or an untimely freeze and a farmer can lose his whole crop, not be able to pay the loans on their equipment and have to file bankruptcy.
The prices of everything will go up, like the cost of a roof for ones home and even the cost of building a new home.
I find it very curious that people who say they do care about small businesses are destroying small businesses by favoring these strict immigration policies.
Do the folks who support illegal immigration really think all crops will rot in the fields and the US population will starve to death? Seems silly. If the problem becomes an emergency then the govt will finally act, that is what needs to happen.
Funny how the same people who argue ^ these points are often the same people arguing for higher minimum wages across the country. Why is it okay for businesses to pay burger flippers more money, but not okay for farmers to do the same with their workers?
It’s okay to pay more for your burger but not for your lettuce?
@TatinG. Have you looked at the source the USA Today article sites? The “Center for Immigration Studies”? They are one of the most anti-immigrant “think tanks” out there. I’d be highly suspicious of anything they have to say.
That might be true of the first generation who are trying to find their footing in America. But things usually change by the second generation.
“These kids who get subsidized school lunches today will go on to graduate high school … will go on to college and move up to the middle class of America,” Chavez said. “Every time we have a nativist backlash in our history, we forget that we see immigrants change very rapidly in the second generation.”
Let’s also not ignore the vast number of immigrant doctors, engineers, professionals etc who aren’t “poorer than American citizens.”
